Starting off on a classic

[Chris Brown]

I'm new here so please be gentle
I have been thinking of getting a classic to start off with and then later upgrading to vision when experience and funds permit.
Is there any specific add ons I should consider from the start.
I have only dive a Poseidon previously

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It all depends on your budget. What is it?

If you buy a classic, make sure you check with the factory that its had a new wiring loom, solenoid and that the handsets aren't cracked.

I dive a classic fairly often with no mods at all when Im teaching it. I love it and don't feel any desperate need to add a HUD or a 4th cell or anything else. More people have done deep more wrecks over the last 15 years on classics in stock config than any other unit, by a very large mile. Its the most proven CCR in the world. It simply has more hours than anything else.

 

[Paul Haynes]

I'm new here so please be gentle
I have been thinking of getting a classic to start off with and then later upgrading to vision when experience and funds permit.
Is there any specific add ons I should consider from the start.
I have only dive a Poseidon previously

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I have a manufactured refurbished APD Classic for sale in excellent condition if you are looking for one. Its a very cost effective way to start a CCR diving career. Drop me a post if interested.

Rgds

Paul

 

[Mark Chase]

It all depends on your budget. What is it?

If you buy a classic, make sure you check with the factory that its had a new wiring loom, solenoid and that the handsets aren't cracked.

I dive a classic fairly often with no mods at all when Im teaching it. I love it and don't feel any desperate need to add a HUD or a 4th cell or anything else. More people have done deep more wrecks over the last 15 years on classics in stock config than any other unit, by a very large mile. Its the most proven CCR in the world. It simply has more hours than anything else.

And more peope have died from low PP02 on a Classic than on all the other units put together.

Always know your PP02

Impossable without a HUD

ATB

Mark

 

[kit wrecker]

Would you suggest a HUD over something like a shearwater for PPo2 monitoring?

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[Captain Starfish]

Shearwater HUD?

 

[Chris Brown]

And more peope have died from low PP02 on a Classic than on all the other units put together.

Always know your PP02

Impossable without a HUD

ATB

Mark

Here we go again

What are you suggesting Mark? That more people died on the classic than any other unit because it didn't have a HUD? Or because the machine is shit? What exactly? What is specific to the classic that doesn't exist on any other rebreather that is attributable to the fatalities you are referring to?

OK please list out all the "low PP02 deaths" on classics and we shall go through each one and see if your statement is really true. Which of course it isn't. Obviously AP wouldn't still be in business if even one of the deaths was attributable to any design error or omission of a 'critical' piece of equipment.

Im especially looking forward to discussing the incident where the diver was observed bashing his handsets on the side of the boat "to get them to work" or the one where they jumped in with all the electronics switched off.

Come on Mark - you're better than that.

To the OP - the classic has a high fatality rate because it was outselling the competition by a huge margin and quite simply more people owned them and were diving them than all the other put together. Marks flawed stats are like comparing deaths on a custom shop built car like a TVR to a Ford Escort. Obviously the numbers will vary wildly. The other reason that accidents were happening back in the pioneering days was that the training was not very well developed. Some instructors used to teach students to take the clumps out of sorb and repack the scrubber with the same material, or remove the used third and top off with fresh. Plus there was no internet forums like their and rebreatherworld to share best practice and knowledge. A far better statistic would be to take the number of classic dives, both air dil and mixed gas, over the last 3 years and compare them to the same volume of mixed gas and air dil dives on other units OVER THE SAME PERIOD and see how the accident rate compares.

 

[colinicky]

Some instructors used to teach students to take the clumps out of sorb and repack the scrubber with the same material, or remove the used third and top off with fresh.

Sorry but I disagree with you on that Chris I was never taught to do such a thing. My instructor showed me the very best practice was to tip the sorb out onto a baking tray & put in the oven on a low heat over night ( or on top deck of live aboard) & then repack in the morning

 

[griffsplace]

Have we not lost the plot here from the inital question. A good used Classic £1500, used classic + shearwater and HUD £3000?, if thats your budget just buy a 2nd hand vision in the first place as kit wrecker was suggesting he is planning on doing in the long run.

Scary to hear the old sorb stories, i stick to the 3 hours and chuck it all away, cheap insurance in my opinion.

Also having done my MOD1 with a very good instructor, it is obvious that the pp02 does not suddenly drop, so a regular check of your handset means you do know your pp02 all the time. Its not like a HUD has a digital read out (NERD exception).

 

[Mike Ferguson]

I had a classic with a Shearwater computer plugged in for online ppO2. I now dive a deep pursuit with a hardwired shearwater controller and shearwater HUD (plus a second hardwired shearwater in case the first one dies at depth, which has happened to me mid dive and mid trip).

Given a choice I'd choose a hardwired shearwater reading the cells over a HUD everytime.

 

[Chris Brown]

Sorry but I disagree with you on that Chris I was never taught to do such a thing. My instructor showed me the very best practice was to tip the sorb out onto a baking tray & put in the oven on a low heat over night ( or on top deck of live aboard) & then repack in the morning

Classic!


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[matt]

... The other reason that accidents were happening back in the pioneering days was that the training was not very well developed.

Spot on, IMHO.

I didn't check the so-called database but assume Mark's comment originates from there.

Mark - do you really think that the HUD would save someone on a Classic if the handsets are off? If someone is not bothering to turn on the handsets then why would they fire up the HUD? If someone is not learning to use the handsets why would they learn to use the HUD?

I would not buy a Classic if a HUD was deemed mandatory - period. I guess the OP needs to decide this first. Personally an unmodified Classic is perfect training ground for learning how to use the handsets and to monitor PPO2 before becoming reliant on "short cuts".

Matt.

 

[Mark Chase]

Yes i do

It saved me twice when my Inspo classic handsets shut down mid dive.

ATB

Mark

 

[colinicky]

Mark - do you really think that the HUD would save someone on a Classic if the handsets are off? If someone is not bothering to turn on the handsets then why would they fire up the HUD?

Quite possibly a hud would have saved a well known & well respected diver from dying who re entered the water after supposedly turning off his O2 to recover a weight belt & obviously never checked his handsets ? Who knows if the outcome would have been different. If highly experienced divers can "forget " to check their handsets then so can beginners who are task loaded.

Somebody said that po2 does not drop that quickly ?????? Believe me it drops damned quickly at 10m a minute ascent rate without any O2 being injected ! I found out at 80m that my 1st stage stopped working at 70m

 

[Mark Chase]

Here we go again

What are you suggesting Mark? That more people died on the classic than any other unit because it didn't have a HUD? Or because the machine is shit? What exactly? What is specific to the classic that doesn't exist on any other rebreather that is attributable to the fatalities you are referring to?

OK please list out all the "low PP02 deaths" on classics and we shall go through each one and see if your statement is really true. Which of course it isn't. Obviously AP wouldn't still be in business if even one of the deaths was attributable to any design error or omission of a 'critical' piece of equipment.

Im especially looking forward to discussing the incident where the diver was observed bashing his handsets on the side of the boat "to get them to work" or the one where they jumped in with all the electronics switched off.

Come on Mark - you're better than that.

To the OP - the classic has a high fatality rate because it was outselling the competition by a huge margin and quite simply more people owned them and were diving them than all the other put together. Marks flawed stats are like comparing deaths on a custom shop built car like a TVR to a Ford Escort. Obviously the numbers will vary wildly. The other reason that accidents were happening back in the pioneering days was that the training was not very well developed. Some instructors used to teach students to take the clumps out of sorb and repack the scrubber with the same material, or remove the used third and top off with fresh. Plus there was no internet forums like their and rebreatherworld to share best practice and knowledge. A far better statistic would be to take the number of classic dives, both air dil and mixed gas, over the last 3 years and compare them to the same volume of mixed gas and air dil dives on other units OVER THE SAME PERIOD and see how the accident rate compares.

Both

The origional Inspo Classic electronics were shite. The wireing was a joke and the battery box & handset design were terable. The famous "cracked handsets" issue was the casuse of failures for 2 out of 3 inspo classic owners. But the most insidious thing was the failure modes.

We were taught the slave would take over from the master if the master failed. But often it didnt.

We were taught the buzzer would sound if we had high or low PP02 but again if the hand sets failed it didnt buz


I had BOTH handsets fail mid dive once and the other three failures were master dead and secondary saying slave waiting for data. This second one hapened on the shot on all three ocasions. Its very sobering to hit 70 m and find one handset down and the other saying slave waiting for data fortunatly that only hapend once and the other two times were imediatly after getting to 6m.

And the same thing happened to four of my regular diving buddies on Classics. Simon (Padowan) Dude AndyP and Juz

Which kind of makes you think its a design issue

I know they changed the battery box but that obviously wasn't the only cause as my rig had the updated BBox

The Inspo classic had the best flood recovery on any CCR I have owned and living with it in terms of general maintinance and dive prep is a saimple and neet unit. But the electronics were a bit shit

I have seriously considered buying another classic and binning the electronics and running it on a needle valve via a Shearwater display and HUD in a G box. Id say thats a good unit to dive.

But even if you paid me I wouldn't dive a Classic regularly unless it had a HUD

ATB

Mark

 

[Chris Brown]

Not being able to monitor your po2 properly without a HUD when you have 2 x independent handsets is a joke. I don't think we should talk about other divers experiences on here either unless they want to join in. It wouldn't be fair to talk about 3 year old cells for example. It's divers bad habits that are causing problems, not the technology.

Sorry, but thousands of successful and pioneering deep ocean dives were done trouble free on classics.

Think of it like a landrover defender. It came out in 1948 and it's still in production. A discovery is better and also cheaper on the used market for a 10 year old example with comparable mileage yet people respect them for what they are. A land rover. A pioneering British icon. Same with the inspo classic. Yes it had issues, but to suggest that people died because of them is outrageous (not to mention probably libellous)

Cars didn't used to have crumple zones and airbags etc, but they do now. The evolution came out and it had a HUD and a different handset. AP moved on, just like all manufacturers do. Perhaps you should too? Nobody is selling it as latest in CCR technogy are they?

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[colinicky]

I think in fairness to AP that there were things that could have been better WITH HINDSIGHT but it is also worth remembering that as far as I know nobody won a case against AP for somebody dying on one of their units even in the good old USA with it's ambulance chasing lawyers !
No unit will ever be totally idiot proof because idiots are so inventive !

 

[Mr fish]

im must have read about all the things that have gone wrong when others have been diving a ybod ,

so when i went and got one , i did worry about the hand sets going of by them self , battery box The wireing problems ,

went out and had a new loom bat box was free lol stuck a shearwater on for when the hand sets turn them self off ,

up to now its peeped at me twice , once a slow cell , and one time low bat , the unit went from master to slave as i sat at 70m waiting for the hand sets 2 go plank. lol never happend , 1300 quid on a shearwater and cell holder as back up ,, never needed as yet ,

maybe im just lucky ,

look at adw now he is one unlucky feeker ,, didnt someone once say we make are own luck .
i went for the ybod as i think i had read about all the ways it may kill you , so have the info to be able to work round the shit bits and take advantage of the good bits ,

 

[Mark Chase]

Not being able to monitor your po2 properly without a HUD when you have 2 x independent handsets is a joke. I don't think we should talk about other divers experiences on here either unless they want to join in. It wouldn't be fair to talk about 3 year old cells for example. It's divers bad habits that are causing problems, not the technology.

Sorry, but thousands of successful and pioneering deep ocean dives were done trouble free on classics.

Think of it like a landrover defender. It came out in 1948 and it's still in production. A discovery is better and also cheaper on the used market for a 10 year old example with comparable mileage yet people respect them for what they are. A land rover. A pioneering British icon. Same with the inspo classic. Yes it had issues, but to suggest that people died because of them is outrageous (not to mention probably libellous)

Cars didn't used to have crumple zones and airbags etc, but they do now. The evolution came out and it had a HUD and a different handset. AP moved on, just like all manufacturers do. Perhaps you should too? Nobody is selling it as latest in CCR technogy are they?

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I would no more let somone I cared for dive an Inspo Classic without a HUD than I would let my daughter drive a 1970s car down a moterway

When I am looking for a car for my children I look for air bags crumple zones and ABS

OK 10 years ago we had CCR without HUDS but we have lerned from our mistakes and mooved on.

ATB

Mark

 

[Mr fish]

I would no more let somone I cared for dive an Inspo Classic without a HUD than I would let my daughter drive a 1970s car down a moterway

When I am looking for a car for my children I look for air bags crumple zones and ABS

OK 10 years ago we had CCR without HUDS but we have lerned from our mistakes and mooved on.

ATB

Mark

is that just the ybod , or would you say its all ccr units ,

 

[Bobjr]

Yes i do

It saved me twice when my Inspo classic handsets shut down mid dive.

ATB

Mark

No it didn't save you. You weren't checking your handsets because you had a HUD. If you had been checking your handsets you would've seen they were turned off.