Starting off on a classic

[matt]

Where are these mythical 1200 quid Classics?

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I agree - they are like rocking horse poop.

£1200 gets you an unserviced one. You'd be a mug to buy one as the service could run to over a grand.

You'll find that £1600 is nearer the mark for the serviced unit but bank on needing cells.

Plus a course.

Adding a HUD IMHO is nuts - if this is a pre-req then buy one (need not be APD) that has what is needed.

Classic is a great unit, does not need modifying to learn how to dive it - IMHO. Learning to dive a unit takes time, and care, with or without a HUD.

Dived mine for 10 years before selling to a mate for bottom-book. I've seen it out in the wild on the cover of a well know rag so it's going strong even at 12 years old!

Cheers
Matt.

 

[Mark Chase]

Where are these mythical 1200 quid Classics?

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I have seen a couple go on the list for that much but usualy more like £1500

The cheepest way into CCR I can see is about 1500 for a KISS or Classic, 250 for a VR3 and 600 for a HUD.

So about £2350

Personaly id keep on going costs down by getting a KISS not a Inspo.

Fewer (if any) repair bills

ATB

Mark

 

[Doomanic]

That one's in my watch list, it's been relisted several times. It's a long way from 1200 quid though...

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[Mr fish]

Where are these mythical 1200 quid Classics?

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was 1200 quid ish . but ok lets say 1500 . i dont see units that often that dont have a new loom + the free bat box , iv only seen one of late with the old loom and no adv , ,( see a few sold for parts )

bov s are less than 500, hud 500 , shearwater s with cable and cell holder my be pushing the boat out , but fookit if you cant toss in a few more pounds vR3 WILL still keep you in theball park ,

ok you need to watch out for the duff hand set/ put even that ant a killer ,

id rather go with the add on stuff than spend on a posh ybod , and end up with less , usfull stuff , that can move with you ,

 

[Chris Brown]

????? you know you can do all that on a Smithers Code HUD right?

Its very easy to spot a bad cell on a Shearwater HUD I reckon Ill spot it within about 1 second of it going out of sync with ther other two.

ATB

Mark

Of course, but most units don't. You could also argue it's just as quick to look at the feckin handsets.

Not to detract from my original point - all agencies have classic courses and the use of a ccr without a HUD is a perfectly acceptable, legal, insurable and safe way to dive.


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[Mike Ferguson]

I looked at a unit for a mate that was going for £1300. It looked immaculate in the photo but was absolutely shagged through neglect and needed a fortune spending on it. he still wanted to buy it but I talked him out of it. Good units can be had quite cheap but you need to be careful.

I sold my classic for £1500 with coax loom, 3 good cells, backlit handsets, 8 dives since it was serviced and a new mk3 solenoid fitted (solenoid died the week before a Malin trip with the replacement unit paid for but due for delivery the week after I got home, that was a bit annoying).

over the next year I then sold him all the bits he said he didn't want at the time, shearwater predator with 3 cell kit, BOV and Alibox. :chuckle:

They are out there just bide your time and don't take the first piece of junk that gets offered. Be wary of the really cheap ones and take someone with you who has dived a classic when you view.

 

[Chris Brown]

I looked at a unit for a mate that was going for £1300. It looked immaculate in the photo but was absolutely shagged through neglect and needed a fortune spending on it. he still wanted to buy it but I talked him out of it. Good units can be had quite cheap but you need to be careful.

I sold my classic for £1500 with coax loom, 3 good cells, backlit handsets, 8 dives since it was serviced and a new mk3 solenoid fitted (solenoid died the week before a Malin trip with the replacement unit paid for but due for delivery the week after I got home, that was a bit annoying).

over the next year I then sold him all the bits he said he didn't want at the time, shearwater predator with 3 cell kit, BOV and Alibox. :chuckle:

They are out there just bide your time and don't take the first piece of junk that gets offered. Be wary of the really cheap ones and take someone with you who has dived a classic when you view.

Great post. Good advice.

I bought one off one of my staff in the US for 1400 USD and I knew it worked and it's history. Handsets cracked on me after about 6 months (probably got mishandled by someone in the shop) even though they were fine at the time.

I sent it back to AP over here and got new loom, handsets and solenoid. Also replaced harness, lungs, mavs, all LP and HP hoses and 1 loop hose. Total spend to date £1800 (includes the purchase price)

I think you are lucky to buy one for under 1500 that doesn't need money spending on it.

My student this weekend, despite getting a cracking deal on a lovely, clean and well maintained unit from a verified seller, spent hours chasing down a leak prior to class and I have identified a slow sticking MAV (probably simple rebuild) a failed shraeder valve on a LP MAV hose, backing thread on MAV valve cross threading / needs replacing and he had to but 3 new cells. That's just the pool session. Perhaps more will come to light later. However, it was probably the best unit I've seen of that age in a long time

It's a bit like old cars. If you know the brand and have worked on them, minor stuff can be cheap and easy. On a classic, you don't want stuff failing at depth do you? Or it leaking on your way down the shot.

However, still the cheapest and best way into rebreathers for under 2k IMO


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[Mark Chase]

Of course, but most units don't. You could also argue it's just as quick to look at the feckin handsets.

Not to detract from my original point - all agencies have classic courses and the use of a ccr without a HUD is a perfectly acceptable, legal, insurable and safe way to dive.


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No Chris you reely cant argue that.

You do not spent the entire dive with the hand set in front of your face. If your incredably good at keeping on top of your hand sets you maybe look at them once every 5-10mins. Watching people in the past id say its generaly once or twice during the whole bottom phase of the dive.

A HUD is right there in front of your eye. Yes you can mentaly switch off to green green green but as soon as you get green Nothing green then nothing Green nothing it wakes you up to a potential issue.


Your second point is purile. Its perfictly teachable leagle and insuraable to drive a Model T ford without seat belts but the "safe" point is worthy of debate.

Are you saying its safe in a Modle T if you have an accident?

Are you saying because its leagle to have no seet belts in a Moddle T its obviously OK not to have seat belts in a modern car?

I meen if you pay attention follow the rules and drive carefulley why would you need seat belts?


I havent had an accident in 25years so i am living proof seet belts are unnessary.

We all know they restrict movement, cause MOT maintinance issues and theres empirical evidance that seet belts can cause safety issues in some accident scinarios.

So obviously no need for them right?

Bit like HUDs on CCR

IMHO for safety reasions all CCR should have a totaly independent HUD and all HUDS should show cell readings on each individual cell

And I am a bit of a Ludite. I dont like bells and whistles on my CCR. I dont want unit interferrance with my dive decisions. I want it to be able to provide a reliable PPo2 manualy or electronicly, and thats about it. But i apreciate that in order to dive one with any level of safety I need to be made aware of any fluctuation or change of PP02 as soon as possable. QED i dive a HUD

By all meens teach people to dive Model Ts but please dont promote them as being as safe as a Ford circa 2013


ATB

Mark

 

[Chris Brown]

Mark, I understand what you are saying, but it's a flawed argument that a classic is a model T and your rebreather is a modern car and therefore safer.

The fundamental difference is that we are talking about one safety feature- a HUD.

the scrubber, can, head, solenoids, loop hoses, mouthpieces, counter lungs, HP gauges, LP hoses, connections, manifold blocks, valves, tanks, absorbent, mushroom valves, orings, batteries, wiring, oxygen sensors, algorithms, voting logic, gas flow and general overall design between most CCRs are near identical.

It's just a can, some sorb in a scrubber, counterlungs and hoses, hardly complicated at all. Every ccr in these discussions uses the same principle of a galvanic oxygen sensor outputting mV data that is turned into a po2 value in the same way.

you are saying that one is dangerous because it lacks a warning light mounted on the mouthpiece.

You then further prove my point by saying that you observe divers that only look at their handsets once, maybe twice on the bottom.

That behaviour, combined with diving cells that are years out of date, leads me to rest my case mate!




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[Mark Chase]

Mark, I understand what you are saying, but it's a flawed argument that a classic is a model T and your rebreather is a modern car and therefore safer.

The fundamental difference is that we are talking about one safety feature- a HUD.

the scrubber, can, head, solenoids, loop hoses, mouthpieces, counter lungs, HP gauges, LP hoses, connections, manifold blocks, valves, tanks, absorbent, mushroom valves, orings, batteries, wiring, oxygen sensors, algorithms, voting logic, gas flow and general overall design between most CCRs are near identical.

It's just a can, some sorb in a scrubber, counterlungs and hoses, hardly complicated at all. Every ccr in these discussions uses the same principle of a galvanic oxygen sensor outputting mV data that is turned into a po2 value in the same way.

you are saying that one is dangerous because it lacks a warning light mounted on the mouthpiece.

You then further prove my point by saying that you observe divers that only look at their handsets once, maybe twice on the bottom.

That behaviour, combined with diving cells that are years out of date, leads me to rest my case mate!




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That behaviour is sadly normal

And the whole "cells years out of date" thing is a smoke screen

Cells can work fine years out of date and brand new cells can fail within a few dives.

Cells failing is part and parcle of diving a CCR.

I am suspiscious when I am told a diver had old cells in his unit. I was supplied cells "new" by APD that were 11 months out of new date. Thease were spares so I complaind only to be told they were good for three years from that date so they were fine.

So according to APD I could put those cells in my unit six months later and id be fine.

But if i had an incident 11 months after that they would find cells 2 years and four months old sold to me 15 months ago?

So old cells yes?

No because APD told me they were good in the bag for two years and good for another 12 months in use.


And frankly so what? If they fail they fail. Just like new ones


If you have a HUD and do 02 spikes and dill flush manual PP02 v displayed PP02 checks every dive, you can spot the failures no problem

ATB

Mark

 

[Chris Brown]

Im talking about divers with Teledyne r22D cells in their classic that say 'Buddy' on them, which are more than a few years old.

You think thats OK? Does this smokescreen and poor behavior of po2 monitoring in some way validate your HUD argument?

 

[colinicky]

My student this weekend, despite getting a cracking deal on a lovely, clean and well maintained unit from a verified seller, spent hours chasing down a leak prior to class and I have identified a slow sticking MAV (probably simple rebuild) a failed shraeder valve on a LP MAV hose, backing thread on MAV valve cross threading / needs replacing and he had to but 3 new cells.

Chris
The trouble was that somebody had messed up the O ring on the exhale T piece & then had fitted 2 of the wrong O rings one on top of the other on the ADV to lung fitting as well ! I found those leaks for him in about 10 minutes flat. I haven't been told were the other smaller leak was that caused it to not hold pos & neg ? the schraeder valve he new about & one of the mav backings as we ordered the spare but did not have the right tool ( in fact both mav backings are broken )
And then I understand he had one of the brand new AP cells crap out on him ? Not bad for a pool session ! LOL
The trouble was he looked at it on his own & trusted the person who was "looking after it" for the seller

 

[Chris Brown]

Chris
The trouble was that somebody had messed up the O ring on the exhale T piece & then had fitted 2 of the wrong O rings one on top of the other on the ADV to lung fitting as well ! I found those leaks for him in about 10 minutes flat. I haven't been told were the other smaller leak was that caused it to not hold pos & neg ? the schraeder valve he new about & one of the mav backings as we ordered the spare but did not have the right tool ( in fact both mav backings are broken )
And then I understand he had one of the brand new AP cells crap out on him ? Not bad for a pool session ! LOL
The trouble was he looked at it on his own & trusted the person who was "looking after it" for the seller

I hope it didn't come across as me thinking it was a bad buy or a dog unit. I was trying to say, that even the best units out there will have some niggles due to age, and that unless you are lucky enough to have a mate like you who can sort it out for you, it could be a costly or frustrating first few weeks of ownership as you chase down leaks etc. He got that unit dirt cheap, it was a great deal.

Yes, a brand new cell was giving him over 2 bar at 4m One of my brand new spares worked fine of course. They must be sending me different cells to everyone else LOL

 

[Mark Chase]

Im talking about divers with Teledyne r22D cells in their classic that say 'Buddy' on them, which are more than a few years old.

You think thats OK? Does this smokescreen and poor behavior of po2 monitoring in some way validate your HUD argument?

I dont think its OK to speed on the moterway but id be a fool to think it doesnt happen.

Fact people do not moniter their handsets every few mins during a dive


If an old cell failes it will be due to age related current limiting yes?

So whats the diferance when an old cell fails or a new cell fails?

I change out cells every year because id rather spend £180 for 12 months than miss / cut short a dive. I have never understood the argument that "old cells" are somehow responsible for a fatality? if a cell fails new or old the diver should spot it.

If he has a HUD he is more likley to do so.

And when is a cell old?

If I have three cells March 2011 in my unit are they dangerously old?

Surely if APD are to be beleived thaes cells are good till March 2014 just as long as i fitted them in March 2013


Yet when i sent in my head to be serviced to APD they insisted on swapping out some 18 month old cells because they were out of date??????? dispite the fact they had only been in the unit for a few months.

Thus totaly controdicting what they said about the 11 month old cells they sold me as new.

ATB

Mark

 

[j_b]

I hope it didn't come across as me thinking it was a bad buy or a dog unit. I was trying to say, that even the best units out there will have some niggles due to age, and that unless you are lucky enough to have a mate like you who can sort it out for you, it could be a costly or frustrating first few weeks of ownership as you chase down leaks etc. He got that unit dirt cheap, it was a great deal.

Yes, a brand new cell was giving him over 2 bar at 4m One of my brand new spares worked fine of course. They must be sending me different cells to everyone else LOL

Ateotd buying a used classic/rebreather is like buying a used car, it's going to be either fine, a nightmare or somewhere in between. There's a level of expectation of course depending on the unit's provenance and price paid of course...

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[Chris Brown]

Ateotd buying a used classic/rebreather is like buying a used car, it's going to be either fine, a nightmare or somewhere in between. There's a level of expectation of course depending on the unit's provenance and price paid of course...

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Exactly! Yours was pretty damned nice for the price. Good buy


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