ANDI withdraws support for rEvo? Posted to the ISC facebook group.

Doing this as part of diving training is just stupidity. This is not a sanctioned / prescribed part of any dive course. I can tell you that if we want to impose symptomatic hypoxia on research subjects there is an incredible number of IRB-related hoops through which we must jump. I think that the risk of adverse events is low but that is almost irrelevant. How would you defend a claim that "I can't function properly ever since you made me go unconscious in that hypoxia exercise"? It would matter little that the claim is probably either outright BS, a manifestation of hypochondria, or the "worried well".Without a carefully considered sanctioning of the process by training organisations in consultation with experts (in other words a "top cover" process) I can understand why people like Paul would feel very vulnerable being linked with these practices.

Simon M
 
face fook is the best place for this sort of bollox , (they cant come on a real forun , get there arse kicked lol)

keep your chin you paul ,

DS , Has gone down a few more rungs on the shitty ladder , should be up to his neck soon .

fook them
move on, take the good ones with you , good time to dump the shit ,

maybe parker and co should do the same , show who,s boss .
 
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This is my personal opinion not an official statement from ANDI. First the announcement did not come out as planned by ANDI HQ, and other than this I will not say much about this topic except to about something that I am sure about.. (There was a list of concerns that was Shared with rEvo in a private letter and if Paul wants he is free to Publish ANDI's letter to him - I will not). ANDI's change of position was not about Dave Sutton (If it was something would have happened over a year ago) but since everone seems to be harping on it I have to correct one fact. DS did not conduct hypoxic training DURING a class, it was after the days activities were completed and offered as an optional experience (It may have been during the general timeframe of a class but not part of the class itself). These type of excercises used to be routinely be part of a CCR class, and ANDI removed it NOT due to safety concerns but rather the difficulty some locations might have getting inert gasses to blend a safe hypoxic mix, thus failure to do so would mean violating standards. (we used to use 14.5%, which is what someone at 10,000 feet above sea level would experience - Many skiers hit PO2s several percent below this). On top of this the hypoxic mixes used by DS were no worse than the FAA allows both passengers and pilots to be exposed to in a non pressurized plane for a routine flight. The po2 is low enough for the person to experience the symptoms without endangering a persons health. Some people are more sensitive than others and their reactions will vary (also based on activity level).. He never exposed participants to mixes beyond this. He has offered to some people the opportunity to experience an FAA certified hypobaric chamber experience.
 
jradomski said:
ANDI removed it NOT due to safety concerns but rather the difficulty some locations might have getting inert gasses to blend a safe hypoxic mix, thus failure to do so would mean violating standards. (we used to use 14.5%, which is what someone at 10,000 feet above sea level would experience - Many skiers hit PO2s several percent below this). On top of this the hypoxic mixes used by DS were no worse than the FAA allows both passengers and pilots to be exposed to in a non pressurized plane for a routine flight. .
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I'm somewhat confused by this.

The description of how the 'hypoxia training' took place was;
"a closely monitored student to sit on the couch and breathe from an ever-decreasing PP02 loop while doing simple word and math problems"

Given that you are on a rebreather, it makes no sense whatsoever that you need hypoxic gas for the test. Air is fine for this test in a rebreather loop, you create the hypoxic condition by consuming the O2 and not the N2.

On the face of it the statement that the practice was stopped due to the issue with getting a 14.5% sounds like confusion from someone who doesn't understand the difference between a rebreather or OC at best, and a deliberate attempt to mislead at worst. Neither is what I would like to see from a training agency.

Likewise, the statement that "the mixes used by DS were no worse that the FAA allows..." also seems to completely ignore that fact that on a rebreather you will completely consume the O2 down to a level much lower that an F02 of 14.5%. Indeed you are likely to be below 10% a minute or so after reaching 14%. And unconscious a minute or two later.

Mike
 
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jradomski said:
This is my personal opinion not an official statement from ANDI. First the announcement did not come out as planned by ANDI HQ
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That's true. Official statement was handled like poor amateurs and almost week later ANDI doesn't still have this information on HQ website. So I just cannot understand if organisation cannot handle a simple task like making official statements to their official website how they can handle more complicated tasks like handling courses? Now it really shows that why ANDI is minority and will stay minority. Organisation is leaded by true unprofessional people who cannot even handle this kind of simple situation.
 
jradomski said:
This is my personal opinion not an official statement from ANDI. First the announcement did not come out as planned by ANDI HQ, and other than this I will not say much about this topic except to about something that I am sure about.. (There was a list of concerns that was Shared with rEvo in a private letter and if Paul wants he is free to Publish ANDI's letter to him - I will not). ANDI's change of position was not about Dave Sutton (If it was something would have happened over a year ago) but since everone seems to be harping on it I have to correct one fact. DS did not conduct hypoxic training DURING a class, it was after the days activities were completed and offered as an optional experience (It may have been during the general timeframe of a class but not part of the class itself). These type of excercises used to be routinely be part of a CCR class, and ANDI removed it NOT due to safety concerns but rather the difficulty some locations might have getting inert gasses to blend a safe hypoxic mix, thus failure to do so would mean violating standards. (we used to use 14.5%, which is what someone at 10,000 feet above sea level would experience - Many skiers hit PO2s several percent below this). On top of this the hypoxic mixes used by DS were no worse than the FAA allows both passengers and pilots to be exposed to in a non pressurized plane for a routine flight. The po2 is low enough for the person to experience the symptoms without endangering a persons health. Some people are more sensitive than others and their reactions will vary (also based on activity level).. He never exposed participants to mixes beyond this. He has offered to some people the opportunity to experience an FAA certified hypobaric chamber experience.
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These type of excercises used to be routinely be part of a CCR class, and ANDI removed it

when did it start
when did it stop , was it mixgas trainging air or o2 breathers please give time frame ie year start and year ended ,

also im thinking of doing this test my self , whats best a wallmart bag or a binliner , lol
 
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mike said:
I'm somewhat confused by this.

The description of how the 'hypoxia training' took place was;
"a closely monitored student to sit on the couch and breathe from an ever-decreasing PP02 loop while doing simple word and math problems"

Given that you are on a rebreather, it makes no sense whatsoever that you need hypoxic gas for the test. Air is fine for this test in a rebreather loop, you create the hypoxic condition by consuming the O2 and not the N2.

On the face of it the statement that the practice was stopped due to the issue with getting a 14.5% sounds like confusion from someone who doesn't understand the difference between a rebreather or OC at best, and a deliberate attempt to mislead at worst. Neither is what I would like to see from a training agency.

Likewise, the statement that "the mixes used by DS were no worse that the FAA allows..." also seems to completely ignore that fact that on a rebreather you will completely consume the O2 down to a level much lower that an F02 of 14.5%. Indeed you are likely to be below 10% a minute or so after reaching 14%. And unconscious a minute or two later.

Mike
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+1 the reply clearly does not make sense in this regard
 
lolwhat said:
How in the heck does air have a lower FO2 at altitude? A lower PPO2 is of course correct, but FO2?
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Yep already mentioned the correction. Was doing something at work when calculating the PPO2 not thinking properly... I was thinking the equivalent of a stage.
 
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Hello Joe,

Interesting comments. Others have made some valid points. I have a few to add.

jradomski said:
DS did not conduct hypoxic training DURING a class, it was after the days activities were completed and offered as an optional experience (It may have been during the general timeframe of a class but not part of the class itself).
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Out of my area of expertise, but having seen a lot of arguments in court and in reference to my previous post, I doubt that this one would stand up as a valid defence for ANDI; especially since you have now publicly defended the practice.

jradomski said:
These type of excercises used to be routinely be part of a CCR class, and ANDI removed it NOT due to safety concerns but rather the difficulty some locations might have getting inert gasses to blend a safe hypoxic mix, thus failure to do so would mean violating standards. (we used to use 14.5%, which is what someone at 10,000 feet above sea level would experience...).
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This alludes to a sanctioned protocol-based practice which is exactly the sort of approach you would need to take if instructors were going to offer such experiences. However, I suspect that consultation with experts, and achieving confluence with military / aviation practice would result in quite a few more stipulations about safety practice around such exercises; stipulations that I believe would be hard to meet in "couch based" exercises at a dive shop.

jradomski said:
On top of this the hypoxic mixes used by DS were no worse than the FAA allows both passengers and pilots to be exposed to in a non pressurized plane for a routine flight.
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I am always in the habit of acknowledging those times when I am entering realms outside my area of expertise and this is one of them. But I'm sorry Joe, this sounds implausible to me. I have trouble believing that the FAA sanctions exposure of pilots to symptomatic hypoxia on "routine flights". Hypoxia at a level causing obvious cognitive impairment of the pilot would constitute an emergency situation wouldn't it?

jradomski said:
The po2 is low enough for the person to experience the symptoms without endangering a persons health.
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.... on the majority of occasions. But it is only a matter of time before something real or imagined occurs. When that happens you will have problems. Whether that is worth the educational value of these sessions is anyone's guess. But in the absence of a properly considered and sanctioned protocol for conducting such events I don't blame Paul Raemaekers for not wanting to trust the judgement of someone like Sutton in titrating the "dose" of hypoxia.

Simon M
 
mike said:
I'm somewhat confused by this.

The description of how the 'hypoxia training' took place was;
"a closely monitored student to sit on the couch and breathe from an ever-decreasing PP02 loop while doing simple word and math problems"

Given that you are on a rebreather, it makes no sense whatsoever that you need hypoxic gas for the test. Air is fine for this test in a rebreather loop, you create the hypoxic condition by consuming the O2 and not the N2.

On the face of it the statement that the practice was stopped due to the issue with getting a 14.5% sounds like confusion from someone who doesn't understand the difference between a rebreather or OC at best, and a deliberate attempt to mislead at worst. Neither is what I would like to see from a training agency.

Likewise, the statement that "the mixes used by DS were no worse that the FAA allows..." also seems to completely ignore that fact that on a rebreather you will completely consume the O2 down to a level much lower that an F02 of 14.5%. Indeed you are likely to be below 10% a minute or so after reaching 14%. And unconscious a minute or two later.

Mike
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I'm not trying to confuse the situation, just pointing out a hypoxic excercise has merit and can be safely conducted (If limits are observed). In the past when the excercise was conducted it was conducted on a OC gas, not on a CCR so that there was no danger the po2 ever was dangerous.. at sea level obviously po2=percentage...

I think it could be done safely on a CCR, but I would not do it that way as it would require very close monitoring and its dependent on the accuracy of the calibration of the rig.. an OC gas is easy, allows alot more freedom (with a long hose) and is known.. you don't get the sense of how it creeps up on you but you do get the feeling of tiredness and you will have trouble performing tasks..
 
simon,
Non pressurized aircraft are certified for use at altitudes of up to 15,000. Above this altitude, the design change, 2 things are of concern, the engine performance drops so they go to a different type of engine, and the use of oxygen would have to be mandated without pressurization as most people who live at lower altitudes would be having some issues .. Do quick check about beginning skydiving, most of the better schools bring first timers up to 13,500 to do their jumps.. the po2 difference between this and 15k is minor... You do experinece many of the symptoms but people aren't passing out or dying left and right.. its accepted as safe.. Our bigger concern is doing any type of real work when exposed to the low po2s.. without living at altitude, we just can't handle it..
 
Mr fish said:
These type of excercises used to be routinely be part of a CCR class, and ANDI removed it

when did it start
when did it stop , was it mixgas trainging air or o2 breathers please give time frame ie year start and year ended ,

also im thinking of doing this test my self , whats best a wallmart bag or a binliner , lol
Click to expand...

ANDI started CCR training back around '92 or so.. It was not mixed gas CCR training.. but that excercise was also in all the mixed gas classes.. I do not know exactly when it was removed.. I remember moving it out of the instructor procedures (after discussions with several of the CCR ITS of the time) sometime early 2000s - probably around 2001 is my best guess as that time we started getting instructors in much more remote areas.. AGAIN this excercise was done on an OC gas not the loop.
 
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