ANDI withdraws support for rEvo? Posted to the ISC facebook group.

paulraymaekers said:
...but I'm afraid that this is partly some kind of 'revenge' by two (former) ANDI rEvo instructors...
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Well as should be clear to most Dave Sutton has a heavy hand in this. All though I hold Dave's knowledge and competence in high regard, i cannot say the same for general interpersonal "skills". I don't mind ANDI sticking it to Paul, but I do mind the manner and the hidden agenda.

Man up, and tell us what the real reason when crying about on all medias.
... Or don't, but then stop looking like a petulent child for gods sake.

As allways Pauls public manner has been without fault. And this in my opinion can be said about few manufactures. Though Hammerhead products takes some bashing, at least in public appearences Keven J. also is allways professional, or clearly humorous when writing. I for one hope Paul, Kevin, Bruce, and others keeps appearing even though they have to stand for what is sometimes close to slander...

Who cares about ANDI anyway?
- they have just marginalised themselves, right?
 
Sly-Vester said:
Paul,
So I understand, a high up at Andi made someone go hypercapnick(sp) and pass out so they could know how it would "feel" like to take a CO2 hit, and was removed as a rEvo instructor? Then another or the same person at ANDI was denied a IT on the rEvo?
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the first was a 'hypoxic experiment' (can you imagine???) and another one was denied IT on rEvo
 
paulraymaekers said:
the first was a 'hypoxic experiment' (can you imagine???) and another one was denied IT on rEvo
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I did the hypoxic experiment to myself back when I first got my optima, not once, but twice. I was a valuable learning experience my me, but I think that any instructor actually taking it upon themselves to force this upon a student is beyond irresponsible and borderline on a lawsuit (or worse).

I would very much like to know the names of the 2 individuals that you speak of. I am sure that if you post this info, that would open up another can of bullsh*t. Please feel free to PM me a response.
 
I would like to hear more about how this hypoxia experiment was conducted.
Stuff like that can be done in a controlled manner. But if not, i would agree to it being reckless.

Sendt fra min GT-P5100 med Tapatalk
 
SlowDiver said:
Slow learner?


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I did not believe that I did not bailout the first time. I really did not think that I passed out the first time.

Garth said:
Haha! I love these forums. I just about spit my dinner out


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Be quiet :-)

Doole said:
I would like to hear more about how this hypoxia experiment was conducted.
Stuff like that can be done in a controlled manner. But if not, i would agree to it being reckless.

Sendt fra min GT-P5100 med Tapatalk
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Mine or the one in question from the instructor?
 
Doole said:
I would like to hear more about how this hypoxia experiment was conducted.
Stuff like that can be done in a controlled manner. But if not, i would agree to it being reckless.

Sendt fra min GT-P5100 med Tapatalk
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on the sofa, breathing from the loop, turn off the O2 until.. you pass out.. easy hé!
 
I did that hypo experiment too as a guinea pig but in a "controlled" environment! A whole croud watching me: they were hypo course students. Private session after the class, no agency involved.

At the bar next to the fire station, seated on a bench against a wall, 1 guy on each side (nurse + firefighter paramedic), one guy in front of me holding the O2 mask at the ready (ER doctor).
It took me longer than I expected to fully recover even on 100% O2.
 
Captain Starfish said:
As you say, the people being hurt are the ANDI rEvo instructors - but any legal action you might pursue won't help them, they are stuck with either leaving ANDI or leaving rEvo.
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Even better if one if the other agencies steps up and offer those instructors a good cross over deal.
Then they can continue teaching reVo with out problems.

Ho is really choosing an agency today?
Don't you choose instructor or unite first and then third maybe you can choose the agency?
 
paulraymaekers said:
on the sofa, breathing from the loop, turn off the O2 until.. you pass out.. easy hé!
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Was it a required component of the rEvo training or was this just something the student asked to do so he could feel what hypoxia was like? Was it done within the framework of the course or outside of it between 2 private individuals and not covered by the course or agency? Was there a waiver involved that isolated the manufacturer or the agency or both?

These are all questions that should be considered. As long as this dirty laundry is going to be aired in public, it should be done with full disclosure. And both sides should be heard, which can not possibly take place here or on FB.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.
 
From what I understand it's a course made for pilots done in a hyper controlled environment made for high altitude training. Not linked with a diving agency but within which divers can participate. But I could be wrong.

Envoyé de mon GT-I9100 en utilisant Tapatalk
 
kwinter said:
Was it a required component of the rEvo training or was this just something the student asked to do so he could feel what hypoxia was like? Was it done within the framework of the course or outside of it between 2 private individuals and not covered by the course or agency? Was there a waiver involved that isolated the manufacturer or the agency or both?

These are all questions that should be considered. As long as this dirty laundry is going to be aired in public, it should be done with full disclosure. And both sides should be heard, which can not possibly take place here or on FB.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.
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Ken, it is absolutely not allowed by rEvo, it's not in the training standards. Imagine some one does not recover as expected? No medics, no ER, nothing!
 
Interesting thread. I watch for the conclusion with interest. Hypoxic-test? Really. Completely stupid IMHO, I would not go near an instructor who even thought it a remotely-good-idea, never mind an agency.

Cheers
Matt.
 
paulraymaekers said:
Ken, it is absolutely not allowed by rEvo, it's not in the training standards. Imagine some one does not recover as expected? No medics, no ER, nothing!
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No argument, Paul. But it might not have had anything to do with rEvo training at all. If it is inflicted upon me by an instructor as part of training, that is wrong. But if I want to take my rEvo and sit on my couch and breathe it without a scrubber to sense hypercapnea or without O2 to sense hypoxia (both of which I have done with other RBs), that is my right. And if I have a friend (or instructor) who is willing to monitor this test so that it is safe, that is much better than doing it without supervision. If I am insisting that I am going to do it anyway, wouldn't you prefer to be there to monitor? Or would your sense of propriety and fear of litigation tell you to walk away and let me kill myself. I have absolutely no idea what the circumstances were behind this act. But the circumstances determine whether standards were violated, not the act itself.
 
kwinter said:
No argument, Paul. But it might not have had anything to do with rEvo training at all. .......
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Ken, it happened DURING an ANDI - rEvo L2 course, no controlled environment, no medic no nothing

making some one pass out due to hypoxia is in no way part of a rebreather course, no training agency can allow this, their Insurance would never allow/cover this

and for the outside world, it would be.. a rEvo fatality, caused by a rEvo instructor (nobody would mention the agency!)
 
matt said:
Interesting thread. I watch for the conclusion with interest. Hypoxic-test? Really. Completely stupid IMHO, I would not go near an instructor who even thought it a remotely-good-idea, never mind an agency.

Cheers
Matt.
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Exactly.
 
paulraymaekers said:
well.. this is all very weard, but since it was posted on Facebook, (and I'm not on Facebook), so I can only reply here:

1 I have yet not had any official announcement from ANDI International.
2 I am in discussion with this person on 2 topics:
A the reason why I am not making him an IT on rEvo
B the fact that he does not want to follow the rEvo course procedures in conjuction with the ANDI procedures (where ANDI and rEvo made an agreement years ago that the last 2 dives in the course would be make to 30m depth, so to comply with both the rEvo standard (minimum 30m) and the ANDI standard (max 30m)

the fact that he puts a post on Facebook without telling me anything about it makes me wonder what the real reasons are...

to be continued... or maybe not :-)

Paul
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Cochran Undersea Technology, (Cochran Dive Computers) Facebook Fan Base take this matter seriously, we posted your replay with a link to this thread.
The entire industry have you well regard and huge respect.
My best,



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As part of a oceanographic research program many years ago I went on a number of P-3 flights over the Mediterranean. We were required beforehand to take several kinds of training, one of which was hypoxic training in a chamber. We all sat in the chamber, with one handler for each of us, O2 masks on, and were given various cognitive/physical skills to perform. We were being video-taped. The chamber was pumped down to to some altitude/pressure, 30,000 feet as I remember (at which the PPO2 would be maybe 0.05 or so). We victims took our masks off and commenced our physical/cognitive skills. The masks were slapped back on us before 4 mins, if we had not already put them on, or if we'd gone non-responsive. I went the full 4 mins. Then we came back down to sea level and looked at the videos. Holy Crap! My skill was to run a pencil through a maze on a piece of paper, then turn the paper over and do some simple math problems on the other side (add, subtract, multiply). My pencil started through the maze just fine, then wandered randomly until it went off the page. I'd written some undecipherable squiggles at the location of each math problem on the back, but no numbers were legible. I would have sworn on a bible that I was doing just fine on both sides of the piece of paper. I remember thinking how easy it was. One fellow had a deck of cards and was turning over one card at a time, saying the value out loud, then tossing it into a wastebasket. He was OK for about a minute on the video, then his brain locked up. He was going ".....ace of clubs (toss), 3 of hearts (toss), 5 of spades (toss), 5 of spades (toss), 5 of spades (toss)...." Two other guys were playing patty-cake....one of them just stopped moving, the other kept playing. Scary. Now I watch the safety video on a plane and when it says to put your own O2 mask on first, and then help those with you, I viscerally understand. Hypoxia scares the bejesus out of me on my CCR. So I don't know that such testing ought to be in the usual CCR course, but I'd suggest a video of it happening would be a really good idea!
 
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