Redundancy- Waste of time?

lizardland said:
I could've bought a complete second hand Inspo for what I spent on my HH controller and I wish I had now. I've never come so close to quitting rebreathers than since I installed the thing.

It's doubly annoying as it's the first time I've ever had to agree with Mark about anything. That just adds insult to injury :D

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Sorry about that ill try not to let it hapen again :D

ATB

Mark
 
Randy Thornton said:
11. Mark and Lizardland, I can't help you with the museum pieces that you have pictured above, but if and when you decide to purchase a new HammerHead CCR, I will stand behind it and ensure your complete satisfaction or refund your money!
Click to expand...


Strangly Lizard Lands four year old unit had rebooting issues exactly the same as my units (all of them)

In the pic you can see the two red tagged bubble wraped units which had just arrived back from KJ and were at that time the latest upgrades with the latest hand sets

theas "Musiem pieces" were spanking new in 2007? And they all had issues from new

So six years from latest tec to Musiem piece???

I dont understand your stance on this.

Thease are CCR units not bloody Iphones. I am expecting my CCR to last a damed site longer than 6 years from new to scrap heap


ATB

Mark
 
Mark Chase said:
Strangly Lizard Lands four year old unit had rebooting issues exactly the same as my units (all of them)

In the pic you can see the two red tagged bubble wraped units which had just arrived back from KJ and were at that time the latest upgrades with the latest hand sets

theas "Musiem pieces" were spanking new in 2007? And they all had issues from new

So six years from latest tec to Musiem piece???

I dont understand your stance on this.

Thease are CCR units not bloody Iphones. I am expecting my CCR to last a damed site longer than 6 years from new to scrap heap


ATB

Mark
Click to expand...

Agreed. Every "museum piece" was new at some point. Being old today is not a justification for something not working in the past.

My rebreather is about 35 years old. So the pod was about 30 years old when it died. It worked flawlessly in the time I had it. For a four year old unit to be described as obsolete and an excuse for its problems sounds like a straw man argument to me.

Better than the user error excuses of the past. So that's some progress. But I'd still never buy another HH product. How many years has it taken to admit to the units having issues? Dodgy depth sensors, rebooting, the infinite 3m stop, the random TTS estimates, etc... For something that cost more than my first complete KISS unit that's a poor deal.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
 
Mark and Stewart,

I don't intend to rehash history. I am truly sorry that you had a poor experience in the past. As I have mentioned, we took over worldwide production, distribution, marketing and factory training starting January 1, 2014. Our intention is to ensure that virtually EVERY single customer that we service is 100% satisfied with our product, no questions asked. Our quality control is second to none, and we stand behind any and every product that we ship. That is the commitment that we have made to ourselves and our customers. I hope that we get a chance to work together in the future. If not, I certainly understand but I just want you to understand that we are committed to excellence with product manufacturing, QC and customer service. We can't change the past, but we certainly are committed to establish a positive relationship with our customers going forward. If there is anything I can personally do to help either one of you, please feel free to contact me via PM.
 
This thread appears to have gotten a little off track. Perhaps the current posts should be moved into a new HH thread?
 
Randy Thornton said:
Mark and Stewart,

I don't intend to rehash history. I am truly sorry that you had a poor experience in the past. As I have mentioned, we took over worldwide production, distribution, marketing and factory training starting January 1, 2014. Our intention is to ensure that virtually EVERY single customer that we service is 100% satisfied with our product, no questions asked. Our quality control is second to none, and we stand behind any and every product that we ship. That is the commitment that we have made to ourselves and our customers. I hope that we get a chance to work together in the future. If not, I certainly understand but I just want you to understand that we are committed to excellence with product manufacturing, QC and customer service. We can't change the past, but we certainly are committed to establish a positive relationship with our customers going forward. If there is anything I can personally do to help either one of you, please feel free to contact me via PM.
Click to expand...



Randy thats great news and much apreciated. I would stress that when my HH did work it was way ahead of the competition at that time and as I said in my write up on the unit, I liked it a lot when it worked.

If the new HHs are relaible i am sure they will be saught after units.

My 2p?

Send one to DSix36 for a long term test. If he can get on with it then it will be the greatest marketing move ever.

ATB

Mark
 
Last edited:
If Bruce donates a SW controller I'll happily do a side by side comparison.

I grudgingly have to admit the HH holds setpoint very well. I've said for years Kevin should have done a basic, simple controller with none of the bullshit extras (where the problems seem to lie). It would've been a nice unit. Instead it got bloated.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
 
Ben Field said:
I see alot of units now come with Everything, multiple monitors, CO2 this and that, backup everything, some even have multiple HUD's. All of this "bling" is very clever.

Now, call me a Luddite if you must (I'm not, I love tech) but have we obscured the purpose in adding functionality that for 99% of diving is entirely superfluous?
IIRC, the point was to go SCUBA diving.

Would anyone dare speculate on the difference in Actual safety compared to Perceived safety of having a very simple rebreather in contrast to a Fully Featured, bells and Whistles unit?

Is Redundancy misleading people at the consumer/recreational end of the market?

Your thoughts please :-)
Click to expand...

The criteria as to which RB to buy and what additional items to add should be based on what eventually you are going to use the unit for. (Recreational, Deep Exploration). When I researched the 'right' unit to buy I was OC Trimix qualified and wanted a unit able to take me to 100m and was Cave/Cavern proven. (Since I live in a remote location Support was initially an issue; this criteria, in retrospect, was misleading)

According to these Criteria I changed the standard unit (over time) to what it is today:

1) External 2 L Inflation Cylinder
2) 3 L O2 & Dil Cylinders
3) Removal of Bailout option onto Dil cylinder due to restricted volume at depth.
4) Extended battery live on Handsets
5) HUD - purely as a warning device, (Deco on the HUD a great feature I do not want to be without anymore)
6) Addition of BOV - I find that this addition has made a great difference psychologically; before I thought twice to get off the loop, now sanity breaths have become routine)

So, in summary, IMO, the eventual application of the unit should determine the setup. If these options are not offered by the supplier, an alternative should be sourced which does.
 
For me the thing that governs the redundancy in my unit is the amount of bailout I carry.

Full bailout then redundancy in the unit is a luxury. Less than full bailout then I'd want more layers to my unit.

Reading threads like this does make me think there is a lot of confusion over redundancy, essentials, luxuries and gadgets.

The unit I felt was most comfortable was my crappy old KISS Classic, black triple display, stainless MAV, full braided plumbing everywhere. Not much redundancy but robust as hell. The less likely something is to break then the less redundancy you need.

Sometimes I wonder how much weaker a system becomes by adding complex and often not very well executed (HH as an example) add ons and improvements.

I'd far rather have a simple, rock solid unit that doesnt fail than a complex unit with layers of backup.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
 
Uwe Sieg said:
So, in summary, IMO, the eventual application of the unit should determine the setup. If these options are not offered by the supplier, an alternative should be sourced which does.
Click to expand...

Possibly yes.

I have to admit I have found myself removing things that with time I have come to see as irrelevant such as SPG's and extravagance such as secondary or HUD.

The problem is your first rebreather is unlikely to be the right rebreather, as you say- even if you pick the right one the configuration may not be right. (In the context of "right" alot of people seem to soldier on with sh*te adding bits rather than admit defeat and move on in a religious way with CCR :-)

I even started with a rebreather I knew was wrong (SportKISS) but the price was Very Right (aka Cheap) and as it had good resale value. I thought the Classic KISS was right but use showed shortcomings that could not be overcome (WOB, loop design, flood protection, corrosion everywhere) sadly now I know what I what I find it does not exist :-(

Apparently the thinking MCCR diver is redundant to the CCR manufacturing community :-)
 
lizardland said:
For me the thing that governs the redundancy in my unit is the amount of bailout I carry.

Full bailout then redundancy in the unit is a luxury. Less than full bailout then I'd want more layers to my unit.

Reading threads like this does make me think there is a lot of confusion over redundancy, essentials, luxuries and gadgets.

The unit I felt was most comfortable was my crappy old KISS Classic, black triple display, stainless MAV, full braided plumbing everywhere. Not much redundancy but robust as hell. The less likely something is to break then the less redundancy you need.

Sometimes I wonder how much weaker a system becomes by adding complex and often not very well executed (HH as an example) add ons and improvements.

I'd far rather have a simple, rock solid unit that doesnt fail than a complex unit with layers of backup.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...



Apparently I must spread some reputation around before I can give you some- stupid rep system!

Couldn't have said it better- We don't want Fancy and Fragile we want Rebreather built like Toyota Hilux- tough as nails and fix with a kick.
 
Ben Field said:
I thought the Classic KISS was right but use showed shortcomings that could not be overcome (WOB, loop design, flood protection, corrosion everywhere) sadly now I know what I what I find it does not exist :-(
Click to expand...

Not a rethorical question: did you ever tried other mccrs as Pelagian, Copis, rEvo?
 
Ben Field said:
Apparently I must spread some reputation around before I can give you some- stupid rep system!

Couldn't have said it better- We don't want Fancy and Fragile we want Rebreather built like Toyota Hilux- tough as nails and fix with a kick.
Click to expand...

That's part of my gripe with the HH. My Mk15 was rock solid, switch it on and it just worked. There wasnt much on it to break. Upgrade it with a HH and suddenly I find myself bailing out more than I ever did 4 years on a KISS.

As soon as I find a replacement display I like I'm stripping it back to a mccr. At the minute I feel like I have a Land Rover with a Fiat ecu in it.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
 
andrespp said:
Not a rethorical question: did you ever tried other mccrs as Pelagian, Copis, rEvo?
Click to expand...

No need to try, none meet my criteria :-(
(Although I have got to take both rEvo and Meg apart and make some judgements from the pieces.)

The Pelagian has issues too numerous to mention- not least needing complete replacement of stock electronics and lungs, the Copis is a Meg so off the list for using the chassis as part of the breathing loop and copious amounts of "Aluminum" (the most moronic material to ever put in seawater) and the rEvo would also require complete electronic rebuild and has a very limiting form factor for tank selection despite being rather innovative its off too.

These are just my own issues, I'm sure they suit other people just fine. So no need to get all defensive folk!

My current rebreather is far from perfect but its the closest I can get to what I want. Sadly its thrown me off the certification and insurance curve and that's causing issues too since some Nazi holiday companies think they have the right to insist on seeing certs and diving having insurance- numpties! :sarcy:
What a terrible road we divers have led the hobby with formalizing the training, talk about killing the fun :-)
 
Uwe, you mentioned you won't be without deco on your HUD. Your profile states you dive the Optima Tech. I thought that had a Shearwater HUD? Only units that I thought had deco on the HUD are the Sentinel and the HH DIVA (to my knowledge).

BTW, I find that, though in the convenience column, deco on the HUD is a fantastic feature. I love it on my Sentinel.
 
Johnnyh said:
Uwe, you mentioned you won't be without deco on your HUD. Your profile states you dive the Optima Tech. I thought that had a Shearwater HUD? Only units that I thought had deco on the HUD are the Sentinel and the HH DIVA (to my knowledge).

BTW, I find that, though in the convenience column, deco on the HUD is a fantastic feature. I love it on my Sentinel.
Click to expand...
shearwater NERD has full O2 info and full deco on the 'HUD' :-)
 
How can you overlook the nerd! Game changer in my book. Just wish I could get it without the fischer. Hey Paul. Did you guys make an aftermarket clip to attach it to the dsv? Iv heard bad things about the mounting strap.
 
So what do you dive are there no simple mccrs out there somthing real simple big scubber large gas paths and a needle valve!!


Ben Field said:
No need to try, none meet my criteria :-(
(Although I have got to take both rEvo and Meg apart and make some judgements from the pieces.)

The Pelagian has issues too numerous to mention- not least needing complete replacement of stock electronics and lungs, the Copis is a Meg so off the list for using the chassis as part of the breathing loop and copious amounts of "Aluminum" (the most moronic material to ever put in seawater) and the rEvo would also require complete electronic rebuild and has a very limiting form factor for tank selection despite being rather innovative its off too.

These are just my own issues, I'm sure they suit other people just fine. So no need to get all defensive folk!

My current rebreather is far from perfect but its the closest I can get to what I want. Sadly its thrown me off the certification and insurance curve and that's causing issues too since some Nazi holiday companies think they have the right to insist on seeing certs and diving having insurance- numpties! :sarcy:
What a terrible road we divers have led the hobby with formalizing the training, talk about killing the fun :-)
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top