OC Trimix - Are you kidding me?
- Thread starter Randy Thornton
- Start date
PeterN
Active Member
I expressed myself poorly. :xeye: The KISS has earned the reputation for beeing reliable. I would never dis anyone for diving a KISS classic. They almost never fail. I just see them all tricked out and far from stock.
You chose a good unit. When you have upgraded to a Shearwater you will have it dialed in.
Peter
Capt Morgan
Member
You chose a good unit. When you have upgraded to a Shearwater you will have it dialed in.
Peter
And that is indeed my next move, possibly along with a HUD :thumbsup:
lizardland
Active Member
On a KISS it's peanuts. A set of orings, a pair of DS4 service kits, soaking the can and head in vinegar to get rid of the scale once a year. Batteries in the handset maybe. I don't think I spent more than fifty quid a year on maintenance if that. I used to piss myself seeing people I knew with Inspos getting the regular 500 quid AP tax to pay for the design flaws (rotten looms, cracked handsets, etc)
That's a mistake I made. I held off going CCR because I wasn't doing enough mix diving to justify it. But you need to base it on the diving you would be doing rather than the diving you are doing. I did more mix diving in the first 6 months of owning a KISS than I did in the previous two years on OC. I paid for my unit in those six months.
I always thought that was a bad idea. Used OC equipment is worth fook all and a lot of people realise CCR is not for them and end up with nothing because they flogged their OC stuff.
As for keeping skills up... Really? I do a handful of OC dives a year, after about 20min in the water it feels like I've never been away. I'd suggest if skills faded that badly then they were never ingrained good enough to start with.
I suspect that is more about a lot of people's need to add the latest bit of fashion to their diving (regardless of unit) rather than actually giving serious thought to the unit and its capabilities. You can buy a Land Rover Defender with an auto transmission, leather seats, aircon, push button shift, parking sensors, etc., but it doesn't make it better than a crappy old 90 with vinyl seats, crunchy gear box and a flap under the windscreen for a vent.
I dived a stock KISS for four years. Admittedly it was an early stock KISS and not the later made on a Friday units. Steel hoses, 2nd gen valve, black handsets. Absolutely bombproof straight out the box. The day I started "upgrading" it was the day it started going wrong. The shitty plastic MAV, the diaphragms made out of a bit of bog roll, Mares BOV etc. I even ended up removing the Shearwater and going back to the old black handsets. A stock unit (assuming it was decent to start with) is bombproof. The only dive I ever missed was through a dead cell.
I'd go back to an old (i.e. <#100) unit in a heartbeat. They are worth their weight in gold. I'd be less inclined to buy a new unit with a plastic MAV, dishwasher hoses, etc.
As the old saying goes, if you can't say something nice then don't say anything. "Nice upgrade" is a useful way of not saying anything...
diverklondike
Member
I know quite a few people that are regularly diving OC Trimix...
I mostly dive my KISS and have for the past 5 years but I kept my OC stuff so that I have it for when I want it. When it comes time for the once a year switch to OC (like when I got to Mexico for the shallow caves) I've found that my in-water OC skills never really went away. This whole thing about "keeping skills up" is a crock. They don't really go away.
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
Perfictly understandable but if you want to do 30+ mix dives a year like me you relay cant aford not to go CCR. Useless if you planning on quitting diving after a couple of years but for me I have 25 years behind me and i am hoping for another 20 before i have to pack it in.
I took £15.00 off the top of my head but lets do it properly:
I have never needed a cell every six months??? I replace once a year and I carry two spairs which I use for the replacement and replace the spairs.
Cells 3 X 60.00 £180.00
Batteries? £12 a year
Dive cost:
Sofnalime fill £8.00
Trimix to do any dive? 60 bar in a 3ltr lets say 13/65 X 180ltrs? £2.70 bassed on a twin 18s fill of 13/65 costing £130 (which is what i paid in 2004)
02 180ltrs at 1p / ltr = £1.80
So actual dive cost for a three hours dive to 80m on 13/65 = £8.00 + £1.80 + £2.70 Total £12.50
So asuming 30 mix dives a year:
Cells 180 / 30 = £6
Batteries 12 / 30 = 40p
So bassed on a 3 hour dive to 80m, Total dive cost £18.90
Costs stay the same for a 50m dive but with your gas costs the mix would be £2.23p
What service costs on the KISS?
There is no anual service requirement and theres nothing apart from the Apex first stages which requires servicing?
You cleen and lube the kit your self. I have never sent any unit back to the manufacturor that wasn't a ECCR with a computer failure.
The only anual service cost on a KISS I can think of would be a Apex first stage service?
You have made no alowance for for the cost of the OK kit you'd need to do the diving i do. IE 4 twinsets with at least two sets of twin 15s or twin 18s.
Minimum 8 deco stages mainly AL80s with some AL40s as well
And of course you have made no alowance for the gas logistics cost of getting OC fills.
But lets just ignore that and focus on the per dive cost saving of £51,00 bassed on your 50m dive cost of mid range £70.00 And as you say it will take you lets say 3 years to get your money back at say 25 dives a year.
OK so in year 4 you will start to save 25 X 51 = £1275.00
This asumes you dont go past 50m.
In truth once you find doing a 80m dive is just as cheep as a 50m dive? you will start doing deeper dives.
You start out thinking that way but in the end the OC kit just gatheres dust. I baught twin 7s to do my 20-30m shalow diving with and i have simply never used them.
Get on a boat out of Dover donig a 35m dive and half the divers are on CCR.
Its just easier.
Thats the irony. You think OH ill keep my OC kit because doing a 30m dive on CCR is too much hassell but in the end you discover doing a 30 on OC is the hassel, not the other way round.
But that said if you dive predominently Nitrox depths with 4-5 mix dives a year, then CCR is probably not for you. For me 95%+ of my diving is 45m+ with 70%+ being past 60m, so its a no brainer.
ATB
Mark
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
Peter its a personal opinion but I have had Inspo Classic, Inspo Hammer Head rEvo Hybrid, KISS and JJ ccr over nine years and my favorite is still the KISS.
People pimp their units as did i and I have always stated the KISS should have the new KISS display or preferably the Shearwater, A Golum Shrimp BOV and a Shearwater HUD.
There are plenty on the market with this sort of set up.
However on a tight budget id dive a KISS with a standard display and a VR3 for deco.
My friend still dives an Inspo Classic and stand alone VR3. Lot of big dives done that way over the years.
ATB
Mark
Ben Field
All IMVHO obviously...
Yes. Where they are modified its most commonly a Shearwater for inline deco and PPO2, given the additional functionality its a "cheap" mod
The desirability is whats kept the price of "old" KISS's high, even compared to some 2nd hand ECCR's.
Peter, they've got it all wrong- you tell your missus you need the kit for "safety" thats how I justified CCR, Scooter, EPIRB, BOV etc etc.... ;-)
liztribe
New Member
In December of 2012, my buddy and I traveled to Ainsworth, BC and did 3 dives on a sunken BC ferry wreck 180ft down in the Kootney Lake. If you blink, you will miss Ainsworth. There is no dive shop or support. You might get be able to find a shop to do an air fill 3 hours away in Creston? Okay so you can drive 3 hours away to fill your suit bottle but no other gas. The two of us brought our rebreathers, a keg of sorb, 6 b/o tanks between the two of us, a 40 of O2 to transfill from, a 40 of DIL to transfill from and one of my steel 60s that I use for single tank diving full of air for suit inflation. Gas cost: $60 each. This is based on what we had filled before leaving (the 40's to transfill from), not our b/o tanks because they'd been filled earlier in the year and hadn't been used.
In April, 2013, I did the same trip on OC. 3 dives again as well, I brought 2 sets of doubles, x2 40's of O2 for deco gas, x2 40's of 50%, x2 80's for stages, suit bottles, etc. About the same volume of stuff for 1 (lightly breathing) diver on OC as we did previously for 2 divers on CCR. Gas cost: $350 and if we'd had two divers, a higher fuel cost to drive there because the weight would have been higher also.
Yes, you still carry about the same number of b/o and deco tanks on CCR as you do on OC (I say "about" to avoid "going there" on the bailout gas management topic). Obviously though, unless something goes wrong, this gas is not consumed when diving a CCR, so it does not need to be replenished after each dive, like you do on OC. Because there was no support where we were diving, we had to bring enough tanks for all 3 mixed gas dives. Being on a CCR enables us to pack much lighter when traveling to remote areas. Additionally, this comparison is for a modest mixed gas dive, the window of variance would be even higher as the depth increases.
The foregoing being said, I agree that a diver should have a certain number of dives or hours conducting OC technical dives before moving onto CCR technical dives because if a CCR diver has to bail out, they go back to OC. If the person has little to no experience ascending and switching gasses on OC, then an already stressful situation is amplified. To me, it doesn't make much sense when something goes wrong to bail out to something that we have little experience with. When dealing with any emergency procedure, a substantialamount of training and practice is done to ensure that, when under stress, the methods and techniques are second nature, smooth and efficient.
If a diver goes into a CCR trimix course without ever having had to manage and actually switch between multiple tanks, then sure, the instructor can show them how to do this when they have them simulate a bail out but that doesn't give the diver practical hands on experience because when we dive a CCR, the plan is to NOT use out bail out tanks. The best way to get this experience is by actually doing OC technical dives where you get to practice your gas switches on each dive
I practiced my gas switches and tank management an awful lot leading up to my CCR trimix course because I had been on my rebreather exclusively for the past year and a bit. I asked my dive buddies for constructive criticism and technique suggestions. I am glad I did though because having these OC skills down pat, enabled my instructor to give me additional challenges on the course that related to CCR diving rather than spending time reviewing OC skills. And we were also able to some pretty awesome dives because he didn't have to teach me how to bail out and then switch between multiple tanks.
Whether or not someone has done a formal course, or has just gone out and practiced simulated gas switches to death, a diver entering a CCR trimix course should be able to demonstrate a certain level of competency in this area.
In April, 2013, I did the same trip on OC. 3 dives again as well, I brought 2 sets of doubles, x2 40's of O2 for deco gas, x2 40's of 50%, x2 80's for stages, suit bottles, etc. About the same volume of stuff for 1 (lightly breathing) diver on OC as we did previously for 2 divers on CCR. Gas cost: $350 and if we'd had two divers, a higher fuel cost to drive there because the weight would have been higher also.
Yes, you still carry about the same number of b/o and deco tanks on CCR as you do on OC (I say "about" to avoid "going there" on the bailout gas management topic). Obviously though, unless something goes wrong, this gas is not consumed when diving a CCR, so it does not need to be replenished after each dive, like you do on OC. Because there was no support where we were diving, we had to bring enough tanks for all 3 mixed gas dives. Being on a CCR enables us to pack much lighter when traveling to remote areas. Additionally, this comparison is for a modest mixed gas dive, the window of variance would be even higher as the depth increases.
The foregoing being said, I agree that a diver should have a certain number of dives or hours conducting OC technical dives before moving onto CCR technical dives because if a CCR diver has to bail out, they go back to OC. If the person has little to no experience ascending and switching gasses on OC, then an already stressful situation is amplified. To me, it doesn't make much sense when something goes wrong to bail out to something that we have little experience with. When dealing with any emergency procedure, a substantialamount of training and practice is done to ensure that, when under stress, the methods and techniques are second nature, smooth and efficient.
If a diver goes into a CCR trimix course without ever having had to manage and actually switch between multiple tanks, then sure, the instructor can show them how to do this when they have them simulate a bail out but that doesn't give the diver practical hands on experience because when we dive a CCR, the plan is to NOT use out bail out tanks. The best way to get this experience is by actually doing OC technical dives where you get to practice your gas switches on each dive
I practiced my gas switches and tank management an awful lot leading up to my CCR trimix course because I had been on my rebreather exclusively for the past year and a bit. I asked my dive buddies for constructive criticism and technique suggestions. I am glad I did though because having these OC skills down pat, enabled my instructor to give me additional challenges on the course that related to CCR diving rather than spending time reviewing OC skills. And we were also able to some pretty awesome dives because he didn't have to teach me how to bail out and then switch between multiple tanks.
Whether or not someone has done a formal course, or has just gone out and practiced simulated gas switches to death, a diver entering a CCR trimix course should be able to demonstrate a certain level of competency in this area.
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opheim
CCRX Supporter
Pretty much everyone around here (who are diving tech) dives OC Trimix. Rebreathers are very rare, and a definite minority here.
A lot of the techdiving here is in the 40-65m range. Typically such an OC trimix dive with norwegian gas prices (private fillings, retail is just ridiculous) will cost you ~500-700 NOK (80-120 USD). A typical new and high quality CCR (JJ or Meg) with training to tech level will easily cost you 80-100.000,- NOK (13-17000 USD) with the 25% sales tax here. Plus travel if you need (we have no JJ instructors here). If you do 25-40 trimix dives annually, even if you don't calculate cost at all for CCR trimix dives, you'll still spend easily 3-6 years just to break even. When you add up a typical CCR trimix dive with sorb, annual service/cells etc plus gas, it's going to take significantly longer.
The limited amount of divers here regularly doing 70-100msw diving (at least those I know personally) are more and more looking at CCRs, but most of them I think do it for other reasons than the economy in it. Logistics and safety margins (gas management) at depth are more common arguments.
A lot of the techdiving here is in the 40-65m range. Typically such an OC trimix dive with norwegian gas prices (private fillings, retail is just ridiculous) will cost you ~500-700 NOK (80-120 USD). A typical new and high quality CCR (JJ or Meg) with training to tech level will easily cost you 80-100.000,- NOK (13-17000 USD) with the 25% sales tax here. Plus travel if you need (we have no JJ instructors here). If you do 25-40 trimix dives annually, even if you don't calculate cost at all for CCR trimix dives, you'll still spend easily 3-6 years just to break even. When you add up a typical CCR trimix dive with sorb, annual service/cells etc plus gas, it's going to take significantly longer.
The limited amount of divers here regularly doing 70-100msw diving (at least those I know personally) are more and more looking at CCRs, but most of them I think do it for other reasons than the economy in it. Logistics and safety margins (gas management) at depth are more common arguments.
Chris Brown
Official CAMRA ale tester
hehe - thats what I do too. Or its needed for 'business'
Might I add (didn't see it mentioned) that the use of an Rb lends itself to using trimix on almost all dives. I bank a couple different mixes and just fill from the banks. I just did about 300 minutes in ginnie and just used 17/40 since it was what was in the tanks. Also, the warm water of the keys can be a little too warm when using air, the helium brings down the temp to a less suana-like feel. Just my 2 cents
Interesting how does that work?
That has not been my experience so that is why I asked.
opheim
CCRX Supporter
Ah, sorry. Just to be clear - batteries, cells and disinfectant would be the extra "service"-costs vs. OC. Both me and those I dive with regularly serve all our own regs, both for OC and CCR. As for comparable costs I would calculate sorb+gas (CCR) vs gas (OC).