Experience needed before CCR

I did Mod 1 with jj last year in Safaga. Training orga IART. just have around 30 hours on my belt so consider myself a newbie in ccr. Background oc BSAC advanced nitrox.
Bailout up to the surface was from bottom . all relevant skills as i can recall were expected neutrally boyant.
i will never forget the first day in ccr training with my boyancy being shite like... now after almost 30 hours still working on it especially during my ascents and stops
 
As a cave diver I regularly do mock bailouts from max penetration. I also dive sidemount OC regularly to keep the skills up.

I went to CCR right after ADV Nitrox. I couldn't see the point to do all my tech training on OC, then go to CCR and basically have to re-learn everything. I had a few instructors I was looking into doing a course with tell me they wouldn't even train me without OC trimix. Their CCR courses were also just 5 days long, which in my view is not long enough to make someone proficient. When I finally found an instructor, before I told him about my experience I asked him about how he felt about going to CCR sooner, he basically just reinforced my belief on the issue. His CCR "Mod 1" or whatever you weirdo europeans call it, class was 9 days long. ;)
 
Last edited:
Quick poll.

How many of you did a full (from the bottom to the surface) bailout on your MOD 1, 2 and 3 (if those qualifications done) and when was the last time you did one from depth as a practice?

Were critical skills completed on your training (1, 2 and 3) carried out neutrally buoyant?

I did full bailouts from the bottom for Mod 1-3, as well as my rEvo crossover, and for everything past the Mod 1, neutral buoyancy was expected. Maybe my experience was the exception, but I'm of the feeling that we should rename them to "breathing open circuit while wearing a rebreather" courses for the amount of bailout drills we did...
 
I did full bailouts from the bottom for Mod 1-3, as well as my rEvo crossover, and for everything past the Mod 1, neutral buoyancy was expected. Maybe my experience was the exception, but I'm of the feeling that we should rename them to "breathing open circuit while wearing a rebreather" courses for the amount of bailout drills we did...

I take it you did your courses with Joe Radamowski?
 
That should be stickered on the front page of all CCR forum IMO

That should be stickered on the front page of all diving forums IMO!

Quick poll.

How many of you did a full (from the bottom to the surface) bailout on your MOD 1, 2 and 3 (if those qualifications done) and when was the last time you did one from depth as a practice?

Were critical skills completed on your training (1, 2 and 3) carried out neutrally buoyant?

Full bailout as part of Mod 1 and as part of the 45m normoxic trimix add-on bit. All skills were initially done kneeling during Mod 1, most (probably what you'd define as critical ones) were then repeated whilst on the move or at least hovering.
 
I take it you did your courses with Joe Radamowski?


Joe Radomski (spelling).

I don't think he is teaching the rEvo. Paul requires ownership of a unit to be a current instructor, and AFAIK Joe is not teaching on them.


Instructors Perspective:


I require a candidate to already be a proficient diver, and in my area that means being a proficient drysuit diver who is able to manage buoyancy well. The first dives with a RB are always iffy from a buoyancy control standpoint, but what I expect is "good progress" towards what will be obvious mastery of the skill by the last of the "training" dives and before the "observed dives" where the training pair (I prefer to train pairs) is asked to conduct a full day of diving "solo" while I shadow them and observe their procedures. That's the last day of diving on the initial course (where Paul Raymaekers requires that we dive to minimum depth of 30 meters, seeing as how we are certifying them to 40...). This is always a boat dive on a wreck in my current curriculum. "Quarry-Only" trained divers are no longer certified by me, although I confess to having done that previously.

Prior to that "graduation day" dives, where the divers are exptected to perform as if I were not there, the training goes from "kneeling while doing basic muscle-memory bang drills, etc" to "doing the same drills neutrally buoyant", to "full bailout from depth", which is actually done twice, once using "same divers bailout" and second using "other divers bailout". Expected performance includes neutral buoyancy during the ascent, including safety stops.

I have stopped training after one day, spent a day doing remedial buoyancy skill training, and then resumed "rebreather" training for divers who do not demonstrate basics in the first day.

I have sent divers home after two days, telling them to become proficient with a drysuit before coming back, and when they have come back we have done an open circuit "buoyancy skill test dive" before rebreather training resumes.

All of this comes down to the standards of the Instructor. The word gets out when an instructor is "easy" or "makes you earn it". Divers self-select to instructors that meet their needs... some seek out the hardest path, and others the path of least resistance. I have seen divers who sought the path of least resistance die soon after training: It's hard for the dive shops who sell gear and train divers in a high volume environment to tell customers that they are not well suited for training, and to turn away that several thousand dollar profit sale/training/accesory-sales package of cash. That brings us to the circular argument "should you train with a "professional" who relies on his instruction to pay his mortgage", or should you "train with someone who is a "professional quality" instructor but who has no real financial incentive to accept as a student those who are marginal". It all comes down to the ethics of the individual instructor. There is ZERO doubt that fast tracking for commercial reasons exists, and leads to a subset of poorly prepared and poorly trained divers who might have done the minimums, but who are really not adequately prepared for solo unsupervised diving.


Experience is gained slowly... but time spent diving "badly" is not "experience". Is a guy making fast-food burgers on a grill for ten years someone who has "ten years experience as a cook" or is it someone who has "ten days of experience as a cook" multiplied by 300? Experience is gained when you are working at and "just past" your prior levels. If you are not improving, you may as well stop calling it "experience".


Dave

.
 
Last edited:
From memory I don't think I did on mod1, I certainly did on my rEvo crossover and have just done one on mod2, wouldn't have met the course criteria without it
Simon doesn't allow " short cuts " which to be honest I appreciate. If I get a cert I like to feel I've earned it!
 
CCR diving isn't hard and you don't need to dive it deep. CCR diving isn't an elitist sport - it's an expensive one.

I think anyone who would like to dive one should - it's a hobby, it's fun. Get trained, enjoy.

Simple CCR set-up, no side-slung, just long NST times at shallow depths make CCR perfect for anyone with the appetite to learn and the desire to practice.

Matt.
 
Did my training in the days when bail-out wasn't needed. No tins for mod 1, no mod 2, 1x7L between 3 on the mod 3. Needless to say we didn't use it, it would have run out before the ascent started. ...
 
There is ZERO doubt that fast tracking for commercial reasons exists, and leads to a subset of poorly prepared and poorly trained divers who might have done the minimums, but who are really not adequately prepared for solo unsupervised diving.

.

Let's put it this way. Here in Oz, and I suppose world wide, you can get a PADI O/W C card after 2 1/2 days of instruction.

I've heard of people not liking the course or diving and dropping during or after the course but never heard of any of this diver factories failing a student.

Even worse they get incredibly angry if you merely suggest that the outcome of their process may not be good. They claim to meet their standards... whatever that means.

These same stores now have the Poseidon or Hollis ccr at their doorstep.

It's scares the $hit out of me.

D


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
 
Last edited:
I have been following this thread with interest in other opinions. Not that it will effect me in any way, but just curious as to how other feel on this subject.

I had absolutely no technical training before I went to a RB. My first unit was a Dolphin an was trained through PADI. It did not take me very long to realize thqat this was way too limiting for my likes and I began experimenting with different gasses and orifices. I make a serious mistake on one dive and ended up with a PO2 of 3.7 at depth and it scared the crap out of me. I ended up doing the entire dive arounf 20' with a PO2 of 1.7. That was the last dive I did with my Dolphin and I went back to OC for a couple more years until I was ready ($$$$$) to look at technical training.

I told my potential instructor that my goal was to eventually dive to 450' on the Britannica with a RB. I was told that maybe I should skip the OC and go directly to the RB and save some money along the way by not doing unnecessary training courses.

Getting to be a long story isn't it?

RB instruction with intro to trimix so that I could use 21/35 was my next thing. Then I went via mentorship to full trimx and 260' dives (gradually of course).

I have since taken both the normoxic and hypoxic trimix courses to keep everybody happy. I have done OC bailout drills from depth in every single CCR class that I have taken (including cave) with DPV being the only exception.

Although this is the route that I took, I do not think it is appropriate for everybody. If a person is not extremely comfortable on OC long before hitting the RB, there is a serious chance of a f**k up at the worst time of a bailout.

Since I do not have the OC background with doing gas switches, I have a very high paranoia for grabbing the wrong mix during a BO and therefore make sure to verify every tank every time.

Long story is over now. :-)
 
CCR diving isn't hard and you don't need to dive it deep. CCR diving isn't an elitist sport - it's an expensive one.

I think anyone who would like to dive one should - it's a hobby, it's fun. Get trained, enjoy.

Simple CCR set-up, no side-slung, just long NST times at shallow depths make CCR perfect for anyone with the appetite to learn and the desire to practice.

Matt.

Well put Matt.

Peter
 
Clare,

All skills dome were neutral & swimming on all CCR courses (except for possibly the first few minutes on each unit to get weigting right). I did full bailout on Mod 1 & Mod 2/3 (done as a combination in my case).

Realistically, I think one needs to be a competant OC diver first - I don't necessarily mean trained to the nth degree so much as experienced and comfortable - in my case I had ~500 dives up prior to doing anything more advanced than OW stuff.

I'd also reccomend doing OC dives from time to time as well, just to keep in touch with it - I'll regularly do this on shallow OW stuff.

One of the other main things is to keep doing drills regularly outside of courses - this makes a huge difference,

Thanks,
Robert
 
CCR diving isn't hard and you don't need to dive it deep. CCR diving isn't an elitist sport - it's an expensive one.

It isn't hard- but requires totally different maintenance standards.
You don't need to dive deep but it pays if you do.
CCR Diving IS an elitest pursuit (Diving isn't a Sport) because its only available to the wealthy.

I think anyone who would like to dive one should - it's a hobby, it's fun. Get trained, enjoy.

True and they have... sadly the appalling level of some entry level instruction and the above mindset has led to some grade 1 plonkers being on CCR, errors that would be forgiving on OC are life ending on CCR. We've seen some totally moronic accidents and even deaths thanks to rubber stamping instruction and ticket collecting divers who want to be the big "I am" at their club by diving a rebreather.

People who need CCR will find out about it and get trained but I have an issue with the instructors pushing units to rec divers with all this BS about getting close to animals, it being safe and having a warm breath or whatever.

Its like standing in a hardware store advertising Free Climbing to fat home DIY types just by the aisle selling ladders :cuckoo:
 
It isn't hard- but requires totally different maintenance standards.
You don't need to dive deep but it pays if you do.
CCR Diving IS an elitest pursuit (Diving isn't a Sport) because its only available to the wealthy.

Let's not split hairs on semantics and I won't point out your spelling error. I don't think having access to five-grand makes me superior either.

The point is that some people portray CCR diving as some Rambo elitist clique who must be at combat SAS levels or they die. It's just not true.

The contrary is not true either - you do have to have a basic level of cognition to dive CCR, and the right attitude.

True and they have... sadly the appalling level of some entry level instruction

And that's the biggest fault IMHO. Too many instructors trying to make a living out of the CCR treadmill, piss-poor training standards, courses run as tests rather than instruction and an industry built around the Put Another Dollar In mentality (even at Tech Levels, IMHO).

But that's not the kits fault, is it?

People who need CCR will find out about it and get trained but I have an issue with the instructors pushing units to rec divers with all this BS about getting close to animals, it being safe and having a warm breath or whatever.

Pursuit Divers (not as good as Sport Divers, lol), don't need CCR. It's a hobby. No one needs to go diving. But we have desire, and the kit, so why impose any restriction at that level? Fix the problem of poor instruction and introduce training not just examination and dishing out the cards.

I don't accept your argument about shallow close to animal dives being bull-shit just as much as I don't accept the cost arguments. At Christmas I went to Grenada and did shallow diving with single-tank divers and I got twice the number of minutes in the water for the same cost: You do the maths.

Matt.
 
Last edited:
snip

Since I do not have the OC background with doing gas switches, I have a very high paranoia for grabbing the wrong mix during a BO and therefore make sure to verify every tank every time.

snip

Don,

That's interesting. As a long time cave diver who was used to operating solely on stages, I thought all the bailout switching back and forth BS was a HUGE waste of time in my CCR course. At one point Tom had us swimming in circles in the pool dropping bottles and picking them up and switching back and forth from CC to OC, and passing bottles back and forth while swimming- I kept thinking "really... I could do this in my sleep..."

Just goes to show every student has different needs when it comes to instruction, and cookie cutter classes really don't work for anything technical (my opinion). :).
 
too many instructors trying to make a living out of the ccr treadmill, piss-poor training standards, courses run as tests rather than instruction and an industry built around the put another dollar in mentality (even at tech levels, imho)

fix the problem of poor instruction and introduce training not just examination and dishing out the cards.

+1
 
Don,

That's interesting. As a long time cave diver who was used to operating solely on stages, I thought all the bailout switching back and forth BS was a HUGE waste of time in my CCR course. At one point Tom had us swimming in circles in the pool dropping bottles and picking them up and switching back and forth from CC to OC, and passing bottles back and forth while swimming- I kept thinking "really... I could do this in my sleep..."

Just goes to show every student has different needs when it comes to instruction, and cookie cutter classes really don't work for anything technical (my opinion). :).

Quick q - were you part of a group? Was everybody as skilled as you are? Or was the instructor trying to help others to become as good as you are? .... So looking at a group he needed to make sure all of you had plenty of chances to practise!
 
Back
Top