Experience needed before CCR

Clare

Clare

Retired - going diving
I did a (mock) full bailout ascent on Sunday. For me, apart from remembering to drop set point on the unit and dump the counter lungs it was a return to my old friend OC and thus very comfortable if not a bit more busy than normal.

Leads me to think though. I have long been if the opinion that people should not switch to CCR until their diving REQUIRES it - rather than just that they fancy the challenge. I know that this view is not shared by many and some CCR divers are of the view that CCR is acceptable for a new or very inexperienced diver.

I was a tech instructor for 7 years, and saw many OC divers with several hundred dives who could not do a safe ascent with small issues going on. I am confident that adding in the additional task loading of a third source of buoyancy to dump and a slug of co2 would lead to disaster.

The proliferation of CCR into the less experienced diving community worries me - and the more I think about it the more it worries me.

What do you all think?
 
I agree.

I see far too many people switching to CCR to carry on doing the 40-50m diving they were already engaged in. In the main they do it to extend their bottom times that were woefully short due to the SAC rates they had and a lot of those were poor due to their lack of decent buoyancy skills.

I was quite happy diving OC trimix up to 60m until the logistics of a long weekend or more became impractical. I was, however, getting gas about as cheaply as anybody can unless they own a dive shop. Others that have long journeys to pick-up expensive gas might find a more pressing need to switch.
 
I started CCR diving for the trimix dive's , not carrying a lot of big tanks.
and to get some more bottom time.

To get there again ,i have to go through mod1 ,mod2, mod3...
so why not dive as much as possible to get really comfy and get the skills where they should be. so i do not become a ccr dive clown.

i dive as much as possible to get the experience , and then go to mod 2.
 
I'd say it depends on the individual as with most things in life. As you mentioned you saw people with several hundred dives who couldn't do a proper ascent. I'm sure there are people with 50 dives who can. Just depends on the person - especially in diving where people come from a huge variety of backgrounds. For me frequency is much more important than quantity too. If you're gearing up for training or a big trip, 20 hours in the water two weeks before is better than 20 hours spaced out over a year.
 
In all fairness it all depends on an individual ie case by case basis. I have seen divers with 000s of dives under their belt whom I'd never recommend to dive with or do an "interesting/challenging" dive and on the other side I had seen fairly new divers being able to cope with stress, task loading very well.

I believe there are cases, not many and I am only aware of one, of a ccr diver who never been on OC.

Although I do agree that on average the more time you spend in the water the more the skills/muscle memory becomes your second nature.

Re switch to CCR - I would have stayed on OC but PFO issues made me choose CCR for the best gas for depth reason only, being honest.
 
Comments about individual ability are of course accurate. I'll leave you with one question though - how many divers have you come across who think that their skills are poor? Most of the students I taught came to the class thinking that they were ok - and many of these had higher level technical qualifications.
 
I think that divers can switch over to CCR quite early in their development provided that they have the aptitude for technical type things! In other words, if they are comfortable messing about with equipment, maintenance, maintaining PO2, watching batteries, cleaning equipment, planning, etc. etc.

Some divers will never be ready for CCR no matter how long they have been diving OC. Other divers, are completely ready after 25 OC dives. It is very much an individual thing. Of course the trick will be helping people to understand when it is appropriate for them personally!
 
I switched to CCR only after having reached and dived at Advanced OC Trimix, so don't have any quarms about doing OC ascents from big depths... a couple of my buddies switched when they where at 50mtr qualified max, they found the first few training dives of Mod3 level rather "exciting", I'm still not sure how they'll feel if they bailout on a "small" bottle at 70mtrs.

A few years ago we had someone join our club who was OC qualified at the first PADI level (max 20mtrs) who'd got himself a mod1 CCR qualification, at the time he'd been diving just over a year with no rescue training but was CCR qualified to 50mtrs, in the next couple of years he's gone to CCR Trimix instructor and also a parts retailer. I assume he's done a sh*tload of diving in the mean time. I'm unsure as to whether he hasn't missed out by jumping through a few OC hoops, since he went closed so soon he must have had to learn some difficult skills on CCR rather than OC (like CBL, navigation, penetration diving etc)
He dives just fine AFAIK, clearly it can be done, you do have to wonder at the difference in depth of experience.

IMVHO there is no such thing a "Recreational" CCR, if you don't need it for some of you diving then you don't need the added risk, I think a surprising number do it for bragging rights because its expensive and difficult (percieved)
 
Clare said:
I did a (mock) full bailout ascent on Sunday. For me, apart from remembering to drop set point on the unit and dump the counter lungs it was a return to my old friend OC and thus very comfortable if not a bit more busy than normal.

Leads me to think though. I have long been if the opinion that people should not switch to CCR until their diving REQUIRES it - rather than just that they fancy the challenge. I know that this view is not shared by many and some CCR divers are of the view that CCR is acceptable for a new or very inexperienced diver.

I was a tech instructor for 7 years, and saw many OC divers with several hundred dives who could not do a safe ascent with small issues going on. I am confident that adding in the additional task loading of a third source of buoyancy to dump and a slug of co2 would lead to disaster.

The proliferation of CCR into the less experienced diving community worries me - and the more I think about it the more it worries me.

What do you all think?
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It's a difficult one! I tend to agree with Quickean in that it depends more on the person in question than their "experience". If someone has the right mindset and is prepared to accept their limitations and responsibilities, I don't see why they cannot fit the bill!

As an example, I have had no formal tech training prior to my Mod 1 course and have had little reason to dive below 40m, so that means I do not require a CCR and, thanks to a low SAC rate, could manage with a 15L cylinder and a pony! But I tend to take the view that I am likely to be safer if I am operating well within the performance envelope for the equipment I'm using rather than at the top end and so learning to use the CCR within this self-imposed boundary and taking the time to build up experience and the discipline before attempting anything more challenging makes sense to me!

Will I ever do dives to 60m or below? Who knows! There's only one dive of that depth I know I'd like to do at the moment, so maybe not. But if the opportunity arises to make that dive, I will want to know that I am ready for it, rather than hoping and just carrying more gas or worse still, trying to fast track the process... but all that practice in the shallower depths won't have been wasted either way!
 
Clare said:
Comments about individual ability are of course accurate. I'll leave you with one question though - how many divers have you come across who think that their skills are poor? Most of the students I taught came to the class thinking that they were ok - and many of these had higher level technical qualifications.
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Surely that's to be expected though, albeit to a certain extent?! If I thought my skills were poor, I'd be damn sure to practice until they were at least tolerable before I tried to take my diving forward with a "higher level" course or a more challenging dive! What's the point otherwise?! I'd rather not waste the instructor's or my fellow students' time with my lack of preparation!

Fail to prepare - prepare to fail. Sadly, I have seen too much of this from students at the recreational level. This last weekend was a revelation with a student who, despite being very inexperienced, had worked hard and applied herself to the course and showed up ready to put the knowledge and practice into action. If only everyone was like that!
 
Examples (which are based in fact but muddied enough so that the student is not identifiable).

Student on twinset. Came to class ART qualified - so one stage and 40 meters or so. Unable to ascend with stops whilst reeling in SMB. Lost it and required instructor intervention to avoid surface not once but twice. Following month - student passed MOD 1 and was quickly using unit for deco due to ART cert.

Mod 3 CCR diver, reverted to OC for training. Unable to make stops whilst sharing gas. Instructor intervention required to avoid buoyant ascent.

Photos on internet of CCR divers being trained on a MOD 3 course whilst kneeling down. I taught all skills neutrally buoyant. Other instructors suggest that for new divers skills need to be taught negatively buoyant to be safe. On MOD 3 ffs???!!!!

I am being careful not to get into a full blown rant - but too often the macho bullshit gets in the way and this leaves us with people who are regularly doing dives that they are not good enough to do, rather than admit that they simply need more time in the water. A push towards recreational RB training is, without doubt, a push towards lower standards in RB training - and we get enough issues with the current model.
 
Clare said:
(snip) too often the macho bullshit gets in the way and this leaves us with people who are regularly doing dives that they are not good enough to do, rather than admit that they simply need more time in the water. A push towards recreational RB training is, without doubt, a push towards lower standards in RB training - and we get enough issues with the current model.
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That should be stickered on the front page of all CCR forum IMO
 
Clare said:
I did a (mock) full bailout ascent on Sunday. For me, apart from remembering to drop set point on the unit and dump the counter lungs it was a return to my old friend OC and thus very comfortable if not a bit more busy than normal.

Leads me to think though. I have long been if the opinion that people should not switch to CCR until their diving REQUIRES it - rather than just that they fancy the challenge. I know that this view is not shared by many and some CCR divers are of the view that CCR is acceptable for a new or very inexperienced diver.

I was a tech instructor for 7 years, and saw many OC divers with several hundred dives who could not do a safe ascent with small issues going on. I am confident that adding in the additional task loading of a third source of buoyancy to dump and a slug of co2 would lead to disaster.

The proliferation of CCR into the less experienced diving community worries me - and the more I think about it the more it worries me.

What do you all think?
Click to expand...

I think an OC background in trmix decompresion diving remained usefull for a few years after i swaped to CCR but 8 years on its now prety useless.

Like you I considered OC and old friend but now i consider it more like an irritating cousin

When i switch back to OC I can't believe i used to enjoy diving like that. All the noise and freezing cold gas and more importantly the finite nature of a tank of gas.


Id find it hard to argue against the logic that if your going to dive CCR practice on a CCR and practice OC bailout on a CCR as it has issues that arnt present on OC deco ascent

QED whats the point of an OC background

ATB

Mark
 
Clare said:
Examples (which are based in fact but muddied enough so that the student is not identifiable).

Student on twinset. Came to class ART qualified - so one stage and 40 meters or so. Unable to ascend with stops whilst reeling in SMB. Lost it and required instructor intervention to avoid surface not once but twice. Following month - student passed MOD 1 and was quickly using unit for deco due to ART cert.

Mod 3 CCR diver, reverted to OC for training. Unable to make stops whilst sharing gas. Instructor intervention required to avoid buoyant ascent.

Photos on internet of CCR divers being trained on a MOD 3 course whilst kneeling down. I taught all skills neutrally buoyant. Other instructors suggest that for new divers skills need to be taught negatively buoyant to be safe. On MOD 3 ffs???!!!!

I am being careful not to get into a full blown rant - but too often the macho bullshit gets in the way and this leaves us with people who are regularly doing dives that they are not good enough to do, rather than admit that they simply need more time in the water. A push towards recreational RB training is, without doubt, a push towards lower standards in RB training - and we get enough issues with the current model.
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I think you might have approached the q from the wrong angle... I might want to take the course but it is up to the instructor decide if I am good enough to do the diving the ticket will allow me to. If I am not to either train me to the level that one would require or look away, let me buy the ticket .... because that is what it boils down to.

So in all fairness it is not how quickly you want to progress but how high the expectations are set.

Skills/qualifications should be determined by the quality of training that the instructors are willing to provide. Are they in for the money or training?....
 
Clare said:
Examples (which are based in fact but muddied enough so that the student is not identifiable).

Student on twinset. Came to class ART qualified - so one stage and 40 meters or so. Unable to ascend with stops whilst reeling in SMB. Lost it and required instructor intervention to avoid surface not once but twice. Following month - student passed MOD 1 and was quickly using unit for deco due to ART cert.

Mod 3 CCR diver, reverted to OC for training. Unable to make stops whilst sharing gas. Instructor intervention required to avoid buoyant ascent.

Photos on internet of CCR divers being trained on a MOD 3 course whilst kneeling down. I taught all skills neutrally buoyant. Other instructors suggest that for new divers skills need to be taught negatively buoyant to be safe. On MOD 3 ffs???!!!!

I am being careful not to get into a full blown rant - but too often the macho bullshit gets in the way and this leaves us with people who are regularly doing dives that they are not good enough to do, rather than admit that they simply need more time in the water. A push towards recreational RB training is, without doubt, a push towards lower standards in RB training - and we get enough issues with the current model.
Click to expand...




IMHO Not relevent


Good ascents on OC dont make for good ascents on CCR. they are totaly seporate skills.

If your diving CCR sort it on a CCR.

The reasions to dive CCR are many. Some will do it for the gizmo freek reasion some for the wanabe hard diver reasion but a lot will do it because of logistics and cost saving over OC mix.

Again hardly relevent. I am sure there are crap deep tec CCR divers just like there are crap divers on CCR who never go below 40m

And vice versa on the CCR good diver group.

ATB

Mark
 
Personally I think tickets are to a certain extent a tick box exercise.

At the end of the day you need be comfortable being heavily task loaded. Get your bouyancy nailled and be comfortable in the water. A lot of the time when the shit hits the fan the bit that makes it work is having had the experience.

At least guys who've come up through the ranks of advanced nitrox/art tend to have had a good exposure and be comfortable managing deco and gas switches. Thats not suggesting other methods cant work, but it is tempting to let the capabilities of the kit limit the dive, rather than the capabilities of the diver.
 
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Mark Chase said:
Id find it hard to argue against the logic that if your going to dive CCR practice on a CCR and practice OC bailout on a CCR as it has issues that arnt present on OC deco ascent

QED whats the point of an OC background
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My point is too many people can't do the easy OC version of an ascent and presume they will be ok on CCR when, as you rightly point out, it introduces additional skill requirements. When the shit hits the fan, solid skills are needed not crossed fingers.

It is not that OC experience is needed. It is that if you can't dive well OC don't move to a CCR and presume you will be fine.
 
Quick poll.

How many of you did a full (from the bottom to the surface) bailout on your MOD 1, 2 and 3 (if those qualifications done) and when was the last time you did one from depth as a practice?

Were critical skills completed on your training (1, 2 and 3) carried out neutrally buoyant?
 
on my MOD's it was all skills dynamic rather than static, and full OC ascents - that's the norm isn't it?
 
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