matt
Well-Known Member
"Knock knock, anyone home?? Hello, anybody??"
Taken to mean you're thick, or empty headed.
That's my guess.
Matt.
Electronic vs manual CCR
- Thread starter beto
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"Knock knock, anyone home?? Hello, anybody??"
Taken to mean you're thick, or empty headed.
That's my guess.
Matt.
Not much more to say Dave, I absolutely agree with you. I have seen the industry go from one rebreather to quite a few and like I said a few posts ago I am an MCCR fan but I believe its because of two things first and foremost I believe that simple rebreathers are better than complicated ones and second the first generation of ECCRS were unreliable compared to and MCCR. I do not believe that is now the case and controllers from Shearwater have changed the game in my opinion.
Those of you that dive JJ's will see my liking for simplicity, its about as simple as you can get and still be an ECCR not just in its electronics but in its whole make-up.
Just by human nature will divers choose different units and they will defend their choice, its just human nature to do that and that is a very good thing, its what drives this industry
we are just starting to get "safer" rebreathers whatever that means!!
Personally I think safety is and has always been with the diver and I honestly think that is whats improving not ECCR is better than MCCR or the other way around
Ok I said more than not much right:flip:
Those of you that dive JJ's will see my liking for simplicity, its about as simple as you can get and still be an ECCR not just in its electronics but in its whole make-up.
Just by human nature will divers choose different units and they will defend their choice, its just human nature to do that and that is a very good thing, its what drives this industry
we are just starting to get "safer" rebreathers whatever that means!!
Personally I think safety is and has always been with the diver and I honestly think that is whats improving not ECCR is better than MCCR or the other way around
Ok I said more than not much right:flip:
Dave Sutton
Banned
Actually... not. I was just trying to get a smile!
To whit:
Knock, Knock!
Who's there?
Cows go.
Cows go who?
No, cows go moo!
:cow:
Ad Nauseum... repeat as required until sick of "Knock Knock Jokes"
Wag more and bark less, I say!
Best,
Dave
.
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Dave Sutton
Banned
So box up one of the things and post it here already!
Been begging you for two years now...
oke:Absolutely and most sincerely agree. It's really a paradigm shift in hardware. It's great kit.
Dave
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Dave Sutton
Banned
matt
Well-Known Member
Oh aye guv. Never said nuffin 'bout being cockney. Mr Tong was far too 90's to be proper cockney.
kwinter
PITA
Even more so if you consider that I'm French.
I can hear you: Oh! that explains everything....:big:
But I see you're in NJ. You're sure it's an English to American dictionary you need??....
Best
Philippe
Touche, mon frere.
I'd like to sort out some sort of trip to see the clyde wrecks with you lot, we could get out on the piss afterwards. It would be amusing to see how you get on understanding the Glaswegians!
A question for those using needle valves, do they have a "depth limit" where the adjustment is no longer fine enough to be useful if using a compensated first stage?
A question for those using needle valves, do they have a "depth limit" where the adjustment is no longer fine enough to be useful if using a compensated first stage?
anarchista
New Member
another way of looking @ it
Very interesting presentation(s) by Dr Focke at eurotek and other shows about mccr v eccr deaths...
Exec summary, NO statistically significant difference in deaths mccr vs eccr (even between units, old and new), but perhaps theres a ways to go in the future in terms of information gathering / more detailed analysis.
So for now, the mccr is safer than eccr is a myth / not a justifiable viewpoint.
Very interesting presentation(s) by Dr Focke at eurotek and other shows about mccr v eccr deaths...
Exec summary, NO statistically significant difference in deaths mccr vs eccr (even between units, old and new), but perhaps theres a ways to go in the future in terms of information gathering / more detailed analysis.
So for now, the mccr is safer than eccr is a myth / not a justifiable viewpoint.
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DSix36
Well-Known Member
I would like to add something from my own personal RB experience that might have some insight to the mccr vs. eccr decision for some people. Please remember this is MY experience and may not be how others learned.
I started out with a SCR Dolphin. Very simple and easy to use and dive. Pretty soon i was rigging it to do more than it was designed for and almost got my butt in trouble. I hung it up and went with an eccr. i did the training and learned how to fly it manually. The manually part really sucks with the constant addition during the dive. I had no knowledge or experience with any of that "leaky valve" stuff and did not like the mccr idea because I just figured that I would have to spend the whole time injecting gas to maintain my po2.
I wanted a rEvo the instant that I first heard of it, but would not even consider a mccr because of both my lack of experience with a mccr and my experience with manually flight of an eccr. When the rEvo became available as hybrid, I was all over that. I have learned that manual is actually easy and I still run mine manually even with the abilitly to run eccr with it.
I just did not trust myself with a manual unit until I had actually had one and learned what it was all about. Experience is worth a lot more than just internet reading.
In the end - there is no right or wrong when it comes to the mccr vs. eccr debate. It is just a matter of personal preference.
I started out with a SCR Dolphin. Very simple and easy to use and dive. Pretty soon i was rigging it to do more than it was designed for and almost got my butt in trouble. I hung it up and went with an eccr. i did the training and learned how to fly it manually. The manually part really sucks with the constant addition during the dive. I had no knowledge or experience with any of that "leaky valve" stuff and did not like the mccr idea because I just figured that I would have to spend the whole time injecting gas to maintain my po2.
I wanted a rEvo the instant that I first heard of it, but would not even consider a mccr because of both my lack of experience with a mccr and my experience with manually flight of an eccr. When the rEvo became available as hybrid, I was all over that. I have learned that manual is actually easy and I still run mine manually even with the abilitly to run eccr with it.
I just did not trust myself with a manual unit until I had actually had one and learned what it was all about. Experience is worth a lot more than just internet reading.
In the end - there is no right or wrong when it comes to the mccr vs. eccr debate. It is just a matter of personal preference.
Dave Sutton
Banned
^^^^ What Don said.
The entire mCCR ethos originated with the KISS, in an era when civilian eCCR control systems sucked. Homebuilt KJ systems built on a kitchen table masquerading as "factory" products that barely worked, a death rate on the early Inspirations that was shocking, old analog averaging electronics on a few Mark-15's, the never-working CCR-2000, and the hugely complex Cis Lunar rigs that nobody could afford. In that paradigm the mCCR system was a breath of fresh air... It actually worked and you understood what it was doing.
Nowadays, with solidly reliable eCCR controllers available, mCCR's are a quaint throwback. Flying a hybrid rEvo is easy, as is flying a KISS, but they are just holdovers from a mindset formed when most controllers were utter crap. I ought to know, I've owned every rig described above, and the controllers were pathetic. That's all changed.
Dave
.
The entire mCCR ethos originated with the KISS, in an era when civilian eCCR control systems sucked. Homebuilt KJ systems built on a kitchen table masquerading as "factory" products that barely worked, a death rate on the early Inspirations that was shocking, old analog averaging electronics on a few Mark-15's, the never-working CCR-2000, and the hugely complex Cis Lunar rigs that nobody could afford. In that paradigm the mCCR system was a breath of fresh air... It actually worked and you understood what it was doing.
Nowadays, with solidly reliable eCCR controllers available, mCCR's are a quaint throwback. Flying a hybrid rEvo is easy, as is flying a KISS, but they are just holdovers from a mindset formed when most controllers were utter crap. I ought to know, I've owned every rig described above, and the controllers were pathetic. That's all changed.
Dave
.
anarchista
New Member
Currently, there is no better, designer the CCR are afraid to modify Orange box to a constant ppO2, than the specified depth. I checked in touch with Kevin Gurr. He was afraid of the concept, that he does not even ask questions.
This can be done, on a one breathing mixture.
greet rc
Ben Field
All IMVHO obviously...
Well said Sir.
(Also alot of ECCR divers think about Manual operation like the failed solenoid drill, without the experience of leaky valves which totally transforms the "manual" experience IMO)
I disagree with Dave that Leaky MCCR is an evolutionary backwater- I think it still has a valid place, its cheap, simple, effective and builds a good mindset, for the occasional CCR diver its arguably a safe approach.
Ben Field
All IMVHO obviously...
I am surprised anyone with "Dr" as a title is niave enough to think there are enough divers and deaths on CCR to perform statistical analysis!
Of the accidents I'm aware there are very few with even common cause- what I mean is that there are almost as many different causes of death as accidents, not all of them even died while breathing off the rebreather FFS!
There is also almost no information about the number of units of each type in existance.
My opinion is that drawing any conclusion more specific than- "CCR is somewhat more dangerous than OC" is threading on thin ice.
Ben Field
All IMVHO obviously...
(removed by Mod)
We've enjoyed so many wonderful Dr's on the various rebreather forums, another is always welcome.
(I should insert Dr Mitchells wonderful "different kinds of poop" slide at this point but I can't find it...)
PS- Dave, hope your house is drying out!
We've enjoyed so many wonderful Dr's on the various rebreather forums, another is always welcome.
(I should insert Dr Mitchells wonderful "different kinds of poop" slide at this point but I can't find it...)
PS- Dave, hope your house is drying out!
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There's more to statistics than dividing the number of incidents by the number of dives. In particular there's ways to compensate for unknowns or fragmentary data and to get a value for how much confidence you should put in the result.
I have not seen Andrew Fock's presentation (I was comatose in my hotel room :brickwall), and I haven't read his paper (is there one?), but until I read a proper statistical argument to the contrary, I'll go with that. No offense.
Back to mCCR vs eCCR, I don't have relevant experience with either but I have been in software for a while, including some (low level) aircraft stuff.
When it comes to arithmetics, keeping a watchful eye, or fine control, I'll take the computer every day of the week. A computer does not get bored or tired. It does not forget. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear.
Sorry, got carried away here
Sure, sometimes there's problems (Therac 25, Ariane 5, Mars Climate Orbiter...), but on balance, it's much safer.
It's not me saying it. It's medical device manufacturers. It's Boeing and Airbus. It's the engine manufacturers, most likely including the one in your car. Along with your ABS brakes.
And for when it does go wrong, we're supposed to have practiced that, and that applies equally well to both.
Cheers,
Matthieu
I have not seen Andrew Fock's presentation (I was comatose in my hotel room :brickwall), and I haven't read his paper (is there one?), but until I read a proper statistical argument to the contrary, I'll go with that. No offense.
Back to mCCR vs eCCR, I don't have relevant experience with either but I have been in software for a while, including some (low level) aircraft stuff.
When it comes to arithmetics, keeping a watchful eye, or fine control, I'll take the computer every day of the week. A computer does not get bored or tired. It does not forget. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear.
Sorry, got carried away here
Sure, sometimes there's problems (Therac 25, Ariane 5, Mars Climate Orbiter...), but on balance, it's much safer.
It's not me saying it. It's medical device manufacturers. It's Boeing and Airbus. It's the engine manufacturers, most likely including the one in your car. Along with your ABS brakes.
And for when it does go wrong, we're supposed to have practiced that, and that applies equally well to both.
Cheers,
Matthieu
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