Deep Bailout Gas Choice for ~70M / 230FT

Thanks Simon, interesting confirmations.

I think we've come full circle (or to a dead end!) in that we know that planning a deep dive with a (unreasonably) high RMV is not feasible due to physical limitations and not desirable due to extra stress. At the other end of the spectrum we could simply say we do not plan for CO2 problems and plan OC bailout only for a "normally" stressed RMV.

I'm still feeling that an RMV near 30 falls more into the "no CO2 plan" category driven by the feasibility argument rather than anything else. I think we all need to be realistic when we are making such plans and dives and cut the back-up plan accordingly.

Cheers
Matt.


Matt Its a long thread so i don't know if its been emphasized before but when i plan my RMV for a CCR dive the 30lpm plan is an average across the ascent.

IE i may be on 50lpm when I initially bail but I expect this to drop once i am ascending calming down and reducing my C02 load.

I completely agree this may be wishful thinking but gas planning worse than 30lpm is a logistical nightmare.


For non C02 events I would expect my RMV to be normal within a min or two of the event. I have bailed out from flooded loops and failed CCR controllers and exploding CCRs and so far this has proved to be the case.


Rather than just adding more or bigger tanks to my rig I prefer to look at ways of minimizing the potential issues of raised RMV. For me this means dive visualization and practice bailouts every dive often several times within one dive. A personal commitment to bailing out very early if i feel my SAC raising for no good reason and access to high helium off board gas via a high performance BOV (High performance OC and CCR)

Furthermore my bailout plans are on my normal 20/90GF deco. So there is gas saving for increased RMV in more aggressive deco (especially in the area of deep stops.)


So far so good. But as i have mentioned before i am acutely aware of the fact narcosis may scupper all my planing. Just the same as i am aware that every time i jump off a dive boat I am exposing myself to the chance of not getting back. There are some things in diving you have to just accept or you quit.

TAB

Mark
 
Agreed, those sort of calculations work and are practical and the best approach to high CO2 is avoidance, as you suggest.

Cheers
Matt.
 
Might I respectfully pose a mission now to the gathered gentry, and that is to take all that you have so eloquently mooted and come up with some sort of concensus recommendation that might be put forth as a "suggestion" for the edification of someone who would ask this question again?

Mixes

Quantity

Distribution among a team of one.

Distribution among a team of two.



Make it simple, and have it be a peer-agreed concensus recommendation? There are a lot of smart folks here, let's leverage the brains and do some good.

I suggest a Chairman for the discussion, and a formal process of submission and review by the gathered brain cells. Without someone chairing the discussion it will go off on tangents. Let's see how well we can play in the sandbox. I'd prefer to stand back myself and just watch and encourage.


Gents?


Dave


.
 
This is my thinking today for 25 mins @ 70M / 230ft........ SOLO SCOOTERING
SAC of ~30LPM for Dive & 25LPM for deco, the plan is to have a large reserve in every bottle....
15/50 x 12Lx300 bar, gives me north of 2600L
(how much only Mr Vanda whatsie can say)...
35/35 x 6.8Lx300 bar
80% x 40'
Drop bottle on boat

I plan on forcing myself to go / stay stationary for 3 minutes and work on breathing before starting the ascent and I am running my backup computer on GF25/125 with the option of padding out my later stops if I am happy, from what I have read I doubt I will be. I have also run the maths assuming standard GF10/90 on a calm bail out like a flood or other to ensure that I can stick to the deco plan.
 
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On the topic of forgotten questions, I asked you elsewhere "One question for you as a diver: How do you personally plan and calculate your bail out gas given your knowledge? It's kinda like asking a Dentist if he flosses.......... ;)"

Sorry Peter, I have been travelling and busy. My apologies.

Can I be clear that I don't consider my opinion / practice any more valid than anyone else's on this subject. Whilst I have a deep understanding of CO2 physiology, and while a CO2 "hit" is almost certainly the worst case scenario in terms of bailout gas consumption, I think the issue of planning the amount of gas you will actually carry with you is complex and potentially affected by many factors (of which the predicted peak and decay in minute volume as you bring a CO2 "hit" under control is only one). These include (in no particular order): depth; deco / no deco dive; overhead environment (or not); availability of team bailout; staged gas plans - where, what and how much; probability of not being able to find / reach staged gas (visibility, currents, dive plan); the levels of surface and underwater support (incl. safety divers etc); the hazards associated with carrying multiple bailout cylinders (eg inside very tight wrecks) etc etc.

I would have to say that only rarely does it reduce to a simple matter of picking a worst case scenario RMV and performing calculations from there. I would also have to say that there have been occasions in my diving where a severe CO2 hit would have exposed the carriage of inadequate bailout gas, but such situations have been a calculated risk which was accepted based on the prevailing circumstances.

So, having said all that, to generate some indicative numbers for an "ideal goal" I have tended over the years to see what sort of gas requirement numbers I get for 5 minutes of breathing at 30L/min (SEV) followed by 5 minutes at 20 L/min and 12 L/min thereafter. Why 30L/min given that it is theoretically possible to breathe harder? Well, this is partly based on what I see in the clinical environment. The reality is that if I ventilate a hypercapnic patient at 30L/min the end tidal CO2 falls very quickly. You eliminate a lot of CO2 in a relatively short time. Now, an anaesthetised patient is producing very little CO2 and production will be higher in an exercising diver. The two situations are therefore difficult to compare. Nevertheless, if a hypercapnic diver stops exercising and actually achieves 30L/min minute volume they should lower thier CO2 reasonably quickly. The difficulty may be in ceasing exercise, and actually achieving a minute volume of 30L when breathing dense gas through a regulator (+ other potential impediments to ventilation underwater).

For depths down to 80m with bottom times less than 30 min this sort of regimen applied to a single 12L cylinder of bottom mix should under most circumstances facilitate return to the downline and ascent to a depth where a switch to a second cylinder containing something with more oxygen in it could be made. I do not worry about ICD in bailout scenarios, and not infrequently this cylinder would be air or a nitrox mix either carried or staged depending on my confidence in being able to access it if staged. The bailout plan ends with oxygen, again, either carried or staged. It would be unusual for there to be gas volume problems using a single cylinder of each of these gases on a typical bailout deco plan for a dive to <80min for <30 min.

Once you start going deeper than 90m or so for long bottom times bailout plans almost inevitably draw heavily on assumptions about strategies like team bailout and staged gas. Resigation to risk acceptance is frequently a feature of such dives!

Simon M
 
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Cheers Simon,
Still digesting this while away in Malin Head. The one item that resonated is allowing enough gas / time / courage to go stationary on bail out for 3 mins and get your head sorted rather than rush into an ascent or turn around plan.
 
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