Industrial O2 to medical grade O2 ???

bazSXD

bazSXD

Member
Hi guys ... a bit of background first. The local (Oz) dive industry is about to be faced with the main gas companies stopping supply to dive shops of pure medical O2. In their view dealing with such small volumes of medical O2 is just not worth the risk, time or effort for them.

Soooo what do I do ??? ... to use a membrane system to produce pure O2 is just a nightmare both practically and economically. The only other option I can see available is the use of Industrial O2 - which is not an option for a commercial dive shop.

This then leads to the point of the email .... can I and how would I filter Indust O2 to a Med O2 level ???

Any suggestions ???

regards Baz
 
Do you know what the Medical O2 specs in Australia are?
I found this document http://docs.airliquide.com.au/TechSpecs/03217un1027oxygen,compressed.pdfd from Air Liquide Australia for their industrial oxygen and the specs are pretty good at >99.5% pure. In the USA, Medical Grade has to be better than 99.0% and not smell (be odorless). Chances are that both the industrial and Medical Oxygen come from the same source and has been produced by air separation.

The USP (United States Pharmacopeia) Oxygen Monongraph states: USP Testing Specifications - Specifications recommend that the potency of oxygen not be less than 99.0 percent by volume. Oxygen produced by the air liquefaction process is exempt from tests for carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. However, if there is no documentation that the oxygen is produced by the air liquefaction process, we recommend that two additional impurity tests for carbon dioxide and for carbon monoxide be performed.
I know you aren't in the US, but the air separation process isn't going to yield more contaminants in the US than it is in Austrailia.
Ask a bunch of questions and see where it gets you. Is Aviator's oxygen a thing in Australia? There would be testing done, including a moisture test. Another option may be that you could purchase Draeger Tubes for CO and CO2 along with the pump to use the tubes and test each cylinder of Oxygen you get for Odor (smell it) CO and CO2. Typically they wouldn't be individually tested, they are batch tested, but if you were really concerned you could do the tests on every cylinder.
 
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Baz,

Is liquid O2 an option for you guys? Do you guys use enough O2 to warrant banking the O2 from a liquid container? That's how the larger shops in Florida do it and it is much more pure and just a fraction of the cost.

Randy
 
bazSXD said:
This then leads to the point of the email .... can I and how would I filter Indust O2 to a Med O2 level ???
Click to expand...


There's no filter possible. But aviators, cryogenic, or forming some sort of dive shop co-operative to buy medical in bulk might work.

Although as mentioned, the industrial grade is as clean or cleaner than medical anyway. And they are both usually filled off the same tap too.
 
Ask your gas supplier to make sure they evacuate the cylinder before filling, then just get industrial. It's really just the cylinder handling that separates medical oxygen cylinders from industrial.
 
Randy Thornton said:
Baz,

Is liquid O2 an option for you guys? Do you guys use enough O2 to warrant banking the O2 from a liquid container? That's how the larger shops in Florida do it and it is much more pure and just a fraction of the cost.

Randy
Click to expand...
Randy your response lead's me to the next question - how do your shop get the liquid O2 back into a gas ???

I suspect that a "device" of some sort needs to be installed to do this and maintain a useful gaseous pressure for filling cylinders - may be via our boosters ??

Baz

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 
lol

put a link in , may help .

1 Liter of liquid oxygen provides 860 Liters of gas. 11l and you have a j
 
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bazSXD said:
Hi guys ... a bit of background first. The local (Oz) dive industry is about to be faced with the main gas companies stopping supply to dive shops of pure medical O2. In their view dealing with such small volumes of medical O2 is just not worth the risk, time or effort for them.

Soooo what do I do ??? ... to use a membrane system to produce pure O2 is just a nightmare both practically and economically. The only other option I can see available is the use of Industrial O2 - which is not an option for a commercial dive shop.

This then leads to the point of the email .... can I and how would I filter Indust O2 to a Med O2 level ???

Any suggestions ???

regards Baz
Click to expand...

Liquid oxygen turns into gaseous oxygen by itself as the liquid boils off from cold liquid (around 180C/ 300F) into gas, rapidly expanding as it does and creating a small pressure.

But I guess if you try and make a move to LOX your back to your point one with the supplier.

bazSXD said:
In their view dealing with such small volumes of medical O2 (or liquid oxygen ) is just not worth the risk, time or effort for them.
Click to expand...

Who can blame them, To the supplier you are not an industry that is recognised other than as a pure element of risk.
Recreational scuba is something less than 1% of the turnover with a (perception from the lawyers and product liability insurers) of 95%
of the potential liability risk exposure.

You will see more and more suppliers taking this avoidance route.

However they are not police so if you can fool them with false statements of use and application and lie as to your intended use to resell the product for breathing
Then I dare say some if not all suppliers would supply.

Diving Oxygen is the exception of the military and the commercial offshore industry where guidelines and procedures are in place, the risks recognised and managed. And the gas is contained, distributed, analysed and dispensed within those procedures and guidelines.

Two gauge whips on a hose, a Haskel and a galvanic fuel cell for analysis out back of the shop for money ………..is no way close.
To my mind dealing with most of the major gas companies this trend is set to continue. Iain
 
Ops ... Sorry my mistake, misread the post. Thought you wanted me to put a link in. Profusely apologise.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
 
I would second that aviation oxygen is probably going to be the simplest for you. If you are near a reasonable size airport, give the local handlers a call and find out if you can buy O2 through them. We were always taught that the main difference between medical and flying O2 is that the aviation grade is VERY dry to prevent freezing etc at very low cabin temps, that won't make a difference for you. Might be more expensive than medical but probably less than a LOX setup.
 
Here in S Georgia, USA our supplier pumps all O2 from one source. How they treat the receiving cylinders is different. If its a welding cylinder they do not pull a vacuum on it to remove any contaminants. Its just filled and shipped. To solve this problem our local shops bought their own cylinders and pay for aviation grade.
 
aviators would be the only other breathing gas and the aviators is usually guaranteed to be "Drier" than the others in terms of moisture content to prevent freezing.

Liquid O2 is great if you use a lot of it because it does vent off as it warms up so unless you can keep it in a freezer or you go through a LOT of nitrox it may not be the best. The liquid O2 goes straight into the blend sticks with no real special equipment needed. You aren't going to PP blend with it though because it isn't pressurized enough for the boosters to be happy. Pros and cons
 
bazSXD said:
Randy your response lead's me to the next question - how do your shop get the liquid O2 back into a gas ???

I suspect that a "device" of some sort needs to be installed to do this and maintain a useful gaseous pressure for filling cylinders - may be via our boosters ??

Baz

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Baz,

Our shop doesn't use Liquid O2 because we don't have a big enough demand for that amount of volume. The few shops in Cave Country (North Central Florida) that go through enormous amounts of O2, usually boost the O2 as it comes out of the dewar. So they store the O2 in gas form in regular O2 bank bottles. Very inexpensive if you have a big enough demand and the quality is as good as it gets.

Regards,
Randy
 
Most of the suppliers are pumping their high pressure bottles from liquid. If their filling process is robust, the high pressure gas should be the same purity as the liquid it comes from. As you mentioned, liquid is handy when you are using a lot of product. Generally speaking, Cryogenic liquid produces about 700 times its volume in gas. However, the dewars don't keep the liquid cold forever, and as it warms, the gas that isn't used is vented to the atmosphere.
 
It might be worth chiming in that not all industrial oxygen is equal. I have one gas supplier on island that sells "pure" industrial oxygen that analyzes to 94%, consistently.

About the availability problem, what are other shops doing? Quietly switching to industrial and hoping nobody notices?
 
I have been using welding/industrial oxygen for years without any problems. It is just easier for me to get it. I bring my oxygen tank to work and fill it through the whip.:cool:
At home I always check 02 % - never had anything less then 99.8%

Tomek
 
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