What's going on here? IS this a mistake or Dirty Pool?????

Don't know, but if they are fitting an aftermarket BOV to a JJ they would be unable to sell it in Europe due to the missing CE certification for that setup.
Can't imagine GUE doing anything to avoid making a buck, so it probably is sold over here without a BOV.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Michael
 
The GUE config changes wing backplate and harness, first stages and hoses, they add their own plus lola manifold and config the tanks upright this changes a lot of the skillsets and mindset but thats beside the point as far as ce is concerned its null and void and they are unable to sell that config in eu.
Curt is not the only seller in usa, for suitably qualified people you can buy through gue. How much is the gue unit Koos?
 
ccrdave said:
Why dont you try it? JJ price in euro is 7190 plus 25% tax plus shipping to the instructor you buy it from ( you still have to buy it through your instructor) now you have to carry it back to the states, maybe excess baggage charges!!! You might be able to claim your vat back if you can prove its an export but then you will have to do a US import and pay those charges plus of course your flight and staying expenses!!!.
You do the maths
Click to expand...

Dave

You should look very carefully at this stated position. If as you state that you are "shipping to the instructor you buy it from" then these instructors need to return the 25% of sales tax back to each and every one of there customers regardless of country.

Sales tax or VAT can only be charged by VAT registered suppliers ie the instructors themselves need to have a valid VAT number.

To charge VAT or to state VAT on a sales invoice and not have a valid VAT number is against the law, sales of goods act UK and a criminal offence
Bottom line is they pay back this VAT or in the case of the UK the Customs and Excise will get very interested very quickly.

As most instructors are in effect non VAT registered traders they cannot charge or re claim VAT payments of charges.

Point two: Your claim of liability insurance implies that you or JJ or the US distributor has in place product liability insurance, I question this
Further if this is the case I would suggest a copy of the US product liability insurance certificate would resolve any claim to the fact of having any at all. Most US scuba importers and distributor have zero product liability I would be surprised they don't follow the close shop route
Now you did state that its Product Liability that has "jacked" the price

Point Three. On the JJ web site they state "Which VAT applies" ?

ANSWER FROM JJ-CCR ApS:
You should order and collect the JJ-CCR rebreather from your instructor. This means you will always pay the VAT from where your instructor is based. E.g. if your instructor is based in Germany the VAT will be 19% or if your instructor is based in the UK the VAT will be 20%.

Two things: This first makes the seller the instructor and again I would ask if all your instructors are VAT registered?
If they are not they have no business charging VAT and IMHO can look out for some interest from there local VAT office
and customers requiring the money paid back

Secondly you should note that an American ordering a product in EU for ultimate shipment to the States pays VAT rated at zero percent
It is an export pure and simple

One reason why on a typical international sales invoice you see both "Sold To" as well as "Delivered To: on the invoice paperwork

Just saying
 
Sorry Ian just landed in sydney verry jet so wi give full answer later but i undestand about vat most of our instructors have a vat no just didnt want elaborate on that in my previous post .curt is the one with public liability insurance which he deffo has but you would have to ask him for details
Cheers
 
Just to reiterate,nobody is breaking vat law here 99% of our eu instructors have a vat number. If tthere is any that dont they do not pass on the vat as we know it is illegal right!
As i understand it if a unit is shipped inside eu and the recipient doesnt have a vat number vat is added. Any unit shipped outside eu does not need vat added
 
ccrdave said:
Just to reiterate,nobody is breaking vat law here 99% of our eu instructors have a vat number. If tthere is any that dont they do not pass on the vat as we know it is illegal right!
As i understand it if a unit is shipped inside eu and the recipient doesnt have a vat number vat is added. Any unit shipped outside eu does not need vat added
Click to expand...
yea its all a bit complex isnt it ,
if i make anything for in belgium for someone in Belgium they pay vat , if the have a vat number they claim it back from the goverment but must charge it if they resell . if they dont have a vat number they pay vat full stop ,
if i sell in the eu zone , if you have a vat number i sell ex vat and you may recieve a vat bill from your country if you resell you charge the vat of your own country , if you dont have a vat number i must invoice with vat . if i sell out side of eu zone all invoices are ex vat but the buyer is liable to declare and pay the vat in his own country whatever that is ,so what ever happens the private buyer should anyway be paying vat . a distributer will Always get his tax bill since it comes through customs and all the paper work will lead to him . if the divers are recieving there rebreathers with their countries vat then thats perfectly normal , it depends on the counties law but if the instructor dosent have a vat number it dosent mean hes not paying it but he cant claim it back either and will Always have to charge it ..even in uk if your business dosent generate the required income you do not have to have a vat number but it also means you cannot claim back vat on things you purchase within the business but at the end of the day the last man in line,the diver will pay it .so i dont think anyones getting ripped off
 
michael hearn said:
yea its all a bit complex isnt it ,
if i make anything for in belgium for someone in Belgium they pay vat , if the have a vat number they claim it back from the goverment but must charge it if they resell . if they dont have a vat number they pay vat full stop ,
if i sell in the eu zone , if you have a vat number i sell ex vat and you may recieve a vat bill from your country if you resell you charge the vat of your own country , if you dont have a vat number i must invoice with vat . if i sell out side of eu zone all invoices are ex vat but the buyer is liable to declare and pay the vat in his own country whatever that is ,so what ever happens the private buyer should anyway be paying vat . a distributer will Always get his tax bill since it comes through customs and all the paper work will lead to him . if the divers are recieving there rebreathers with their countries vat then thats perfectly normal , it depends on the counties law but if the instructor dosent have a vat number it dosent mean hes not paying it but he cant claim it back either and will Always have to charge it ..even in uk if your business dosent generate the required income you do not have to have a vat number but it also means you cannot claim back vat on things you purchase within the business but at the end of the day the last man in line,the diver will pay it .so i dont think anyones getting ripped off
Click to expand...

The major thing that makes me wish I wasn't running a business is being a Tax collector for the government, its gets very complicated at times... and I try to keep things simple! :-)
 
The issues of taxation aren't complicated at all, several facts need to be known and the answers are concrete when it comes to a product like this but taxation has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

The Euro is now 1.05 so the unit should be even cheaper now.

The US is the largest market in the world with a populace that has more discretionary spending power then any nation the world has ever know.

If any argument can be made its that the US would command a discount when compared to any other markets on earth.

To overcharge customers in the largest potential market makes no sense, to add an import brokerage fee (about 150 per rebreather) and shipping is reasonable but a 1000++++++ premium is a joke.
 
ccrdave said:
Sorry Ian just landed in sydney verry jet so wi give full answer later but i undestand about vat most of our instructors have a vat no just didnt want elaborate on that in my previous post .curt is the one with public liability insurance which he deffo has but you would have to ask him for details
Cheers
Click to expand...

Dave

Again you need to clear in your stated position.

Please note I was discussing if you had PRODUCT liability in the USA, you replied with PUBLIC liability.

There is a tremendous difference between the two, The first I suspect you don't have, the latter is a cheap deal solution for slips and falls every hotdog street vendor in the 50 odd states would have. Including every dive shop.

1. Please confirm that you, the US distributor or the manufacturer have PRODUCT liability in place for this rebreather in the USA.
 
JONT said:
The US is the largest market in the world with a populace that has more discretionary spending power then any nation the world has ever know.

If any argument can be made its that the US would command a discount when compared to any other markets on earth.
Click to expand...

Really? The USA population is what 310million, versus 750million for "Europe" which is the biggest market?
Why do you think rebreather manufacturers worldwide care about CE and selling in Europe and how Tax in Europe works? I give your 750 million reasons :-)

The price is the price... a friend of mine once said- "Diving is Expensive, Live with it" it's so true, you are in a niche and at some level you have to pay the going rate, getting all shirty because you have to pay more won't help. Almost everything else is proportionally cheaper in the US so just enjoy the fact your cars, fuel and consumer electronics are half or less the cost they are in the developed world and use the savings to buy foreign rebreathers :-)
 
JONT said:
The issues of taxation aren't complicated at all, several facts need to be known and the answers are concrete when it comes to a product like this but taxation has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

The Euro is now 1.05 so the unit should be even cheaper now.

The US is the largest market in the world with a populace that has more discretionary spending power then any nation the world has ever know.

If any argument can be made its that the US would command a discount when compared to any other markets on earth.

To overcharge customers in the largest potential market makes no sense, to add an import brokerage fee (about 150 per rebreather) and shipping is reasonable but a 1000++++++ premium is a joke.
Click to expand...

You are pointing on the biggest problem with USA, you have a mentality that everyone should drop down and do as you say. This is why you are having so big troubles with lawsuits as one example. No one wants the problems that comes with dealing with the US.
And then someone like Curt comes and takes the the responsibility for the US market and people behave like this.

US is a big market, but far from the largest today. You have fallen behind Asia since long but you just haven´t realized it yourselves yet. China owns half your country and they are over one billion people that is starting to earn money and can buy things just like other rich country's. And you know what, they don´t have the problems with lawsuits and liability. They love European made things and it is a status symbol for them if a product has a stamp Made in Denmark.

Bottom line is that you are paying the same money for the rebreather as we do. The difference is that we are paying a high VAT that gives us free medical care as a bonus.

This is a political issue in the US and nothing a small supplier in Denmark causes.
I understand that Curt needs the extra money because the lawsuits is coming sooner or later and it will cost him.
 
erikradstrom said:
Bottom line is that you are paying the same money for the rebreather as we do. The difference is that we are paying a high VAT that gives us free medical care as a bonus.

This is a political issue in the US and nothing a small supplier in Denmark causes.
I understand that Curt needs the extra money because the lawsuits is coming sooner or later and it will cost him.
Click to expand...

Maybe you are; but I pay 19% VAT, and between my employer's contribution and my 50% I paid 480 Euros for health insurance last month, as I do every month. My copayment on Rx medications is also ~ 10%, without an Rx the insurance doesn't pay a dime.

If you want to buy a JJ cheap, come to europe, get your training here, buy it here paying the VAT, and make sure to export it through customs when you leave europe. With the customs stamps on your documents you will be able to get the VAT that you paid returned. It is a good idea to keep the time between purchase and export under a month, otherwise you may end up exporting a used unit at a value under the purchase price.

If that is too much trouble, then just buy it from the US importer, at whatever price he sets. If you live in a state that Curt's state doesn't have a sales tax agreement with, you can have it shipped to you from Curt's location without paying state sales tax.

Michael

Paying cash, without any receipts, may or may not entitle you to a sizeable discount. Anything leaving a paper trail screws up the ability to save money by screwing the taxman.
 
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scubainchicago said:
That just sounds so Un - American.
Click to expand...

Figure I pay over 50% income tax, and pay 19% VAT on anything I can buy with what is left.
Paying cash just means that I can get more bang for my buck, and the people that I deal with appreciate having a bit more money to spend.
Over here, around 30% of the GNP is estimated to be unreported income.

Michael
 
erikradstrom said:
You are pointing on the biggest problem with USA, you have a mentality that everyone should drop down and do as you say. This is why you are having so big troubles with lawsuits as one example. No one wants the problems that comes with dealing with the US.
And then someone like Curt comes and takes the the responsibility for the US market and people behave like this.

US is a big market, but far from the largest today. You have fallen behind Asia since long but you just haven´t realized it yourselves yet. China owns half your country and they are over one billion people that is starting to earn money and can buy things just like other rich country's. And you know what, they don´t have the problems with lawsuits and liability. They love European made things and it is a status symbol for them if a product has a stamp Made in Denmark.

Bottom line is that you are paying the same money for the rebreather as we do. The difference is that we are paying a high VAT that gives us free medical care as a bonus.

This is a political issue in the US and nothing a small supplier in Denmark causes.
I understand that Curt needs the extra money because the lawsuits is coming sooner or later and it will cost him.
Click to expand...

You are so poorly informed its laughable but lets not turn this into some political debate.....................................China owns about 2 Trillion of our national debt, currently about 18 T.....far from half, as for the "billion" people...most still live in rural poverty....that means there's no buying power.

The US market is about buying power not population and yes it is by far the largest market in the world

I don't feel anyone should drop down and bow to us, its a simple matter of economic theory that makes sense.

This entire idea about "lawsuits" and the US is largely "internet BS" by people that dont practice law, people like you!!!

If distributors want to overcharge they are free to do so, but my point is thats its not smart, JJ had an opportunity here and its being blown by the distributor, the distributor for the Inspo pulled the same BS and where are they now? Who's even considering buying a new one?

I just bought 2 new Revo's at full retail price plus a brokerage fee and shipping fee but when I made the purchase the Euro was 1.14 if I had waited a few weeks I could have saved a few dollars but I made an informed decision at the time, I bought a Euro denominated asset and decided that was the right time to buy. I don't have to worry about people playing games with exchange rates at an attempt to gouge me.

Its really simple and there's an easy way to eliminate the issue.
 
rjack said:
So after 16 pages of bitching you went with a revo...
Good choice :)
Click to expand...

That's not his point and you know that damn well, so stop trying to stir up more shit. It is not about choosing which rebreather, or which ones are more expensive or looking for a discount. It is about whether equitable treatment is in the best interest of the manufacturer. Buying a JJ anywhere in the world (ignoring for the moment the CE issue) costs 6778 Euro plus shipping and import fees. Whether you buy it in an EU country or not. Buy it in the UK and the price is 6778 Euro, not a fixed price in Pounds.. Buy it in Thailand and it is still 6778 Euro, not a fixed price in Baht. The manufacturer is the one assuming all currency risk.

But in the USA, the price is set by the distributor, who is the one and only source in the country. And he is setting the price in US Dollars. He is now assuming the risk and reaping any benefit from currency fluctuations. It is different with the rEvo distributor. The price is in Euro and the amount of dollars it costs is only fixed on the day you pay. Which could be different from one day to another.

That is the entire issue that this thread was about. Not taxes and VAT. Not comparing prices among different rebreathers. And not about the anti-American sentiment that many of you share so freely.

Curt has answered that originally his deal with JJ was in dollars, not Euro. That answered the question of why the price had not come down. But now with the switch to being a Euro denominated product, there is still the question of a significant markup based on current rates to cover the additional liability that Curt has accepted in bringing the JJ into this country. The question seems to be only one of how much is reasonable, and whether it is in the best interests of the manufacturer to be eschewing sales as a result.

I am happy that so many of you are willing to tell a potential buyer that he should choose a different product. But since none of you represent the interests of JJ, I suggest you just STFU.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.
 
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