Functional Safety, Human Factors and General Safety Discussion (Moved from Mk VI)

OK Folks,

I think we have had about enough discussion/arguing back and forth about the APOC or the lack thereof. Let's please direct our discussion back to something more constructive.

Many thanks,
Randy


Randy whilst the discussion has got a bit hot occasionally, most are being firm but fair.

I think the Apoc is critical to this discussion.

It is a stunning example of a safety obsessed design that has totally failed to come to market because its proved imposable to build.



ATB

Mark
 
In deference to Randy's wishes I will merely direct readers to a previous post which proves there was a problem with the Apoc CO2 monitoring which Alex denied but quietly rectified.

Post 4 on this thread: http://www.ccrexplorers.com/showthread.php?t=14980&highlight=ad_ward9



INESON A, HENDERSON K, TEUBNER D, MITCHELL SJ. Analyzer position for end tidal carbon dioxide monitoring in a rebreather circuit. Diving Hyperbaric Med 40, 206-209, 2010.

Has met the standard of a peer reviewed scientific journal. But if you are unfamiliar with publishing in such journals you probably have little appreciation of those standards.

Simon M
Well played.

This has been quite an ongoing game of intellectual tennis, albeit one played unfairly, as it seems Alex wishes the net be always lowered for his serves, but raised again for Simon's returns.
 
Links to CCRX and double-byte characters don't work on here...maybe Randy will fix this (rather than fiddling with the logo, lol).

Try this: APOC - CCR Explorers

Matt.

Hi Matt,

You mistake me for someone that knows how to do this stuff! :dunce:

I'll make sure Josh sees this and see if he can figure out how to deal with it. It might be a V-Buliten issue. I don't know.

Thanks for pointing out the issue however.

Kind regards,
Randy
 
You mistake me for someone that knows how to do this stuff! :dunce:

Sorry for the sarcasm, Randy - couldn't resist :-)

Set the boy on to it, will make our polish friend (who must be banned as I haven't seen him around for a bit) happy next time around!

Cheers
Matt.
 
Don't invoke him....

Randy, I'm not familiar with the software itself but it'll be something to do with "absolute" vs "relative" links.

D

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
 
There are three generic design approaches for dealing with human error, a very expected occurence on any CCR marketed for REC divers...

1 - Exclusion designs - impossible to make the error
2 - Prevention designs - difficult but not impossible
3 - Fail-safe designs - reduces the consequences but not the possibility

MK VI as non of the above features..

Got the point know. Lucky this accident wasnot in the US or they would get a lawsuit to be won easily by the plentif´s.

Rgds

You bring up some very interesting points, I wanted to address your point and noticed that there are 25 pages so be aware that I have no idea what direction this thread has taken.

If it was your friend that died, I'm sorry thats tough, I've had many friend over the years die and it never get easy, in fact it just sucks.

But if we're going to criticize manufacturers and bring to light unethical actions by them we first need to be honest with ourselves so please forgive what I'm about to say:

1) The recent death in Portugal is without question the result of diver error, there's simply no excuse to jump without a scrubber but thats not the whole story.

Because this unit is marketed as "The Poseidon MKVI is the world***8217;s first rebreather for recreational divers. It***8217;s a fully*closed, fully *automated unit that will make you see diving in a different light."

FIRST RECREATIONAL REBREATHER......FULLY AUTOMATED....what business would dare make such claims????? What that statement implies is simply an impossibility and they pull that same BS with the Tech unit (thats late to market) by saying its like having 2 rebreathers in one!!!! Really and how does that work without 2 loops?????

I HATE lawsuits and believe we should take responsibility for our actions but if I heard this case as a juror I would vote to give the family of the deceased big dollars because I do believe that Poseidon's deceptive and dishonest marketing strategy will create CCR divers that would have stayed away because its designed to give buyers a false sense of security. Therefore Poseidon is at the very least partially responsible for every death on the unit.

Lest take a look at the dive to death ratio of a few other units that are responsibly marketed, keep in mind this isnt about endorsing a unit

REVO
MEG
KISS
HH
INSPO

Understand that we must look at the total dives made on the unit since its creation vs. total fatalities to date.

Funny thing is now we realize that the "old" technology that requires more training and education more reliance on the diver isnt so bad after all.
So maybe the answer isnt about eliminating diver responsibility its about empowering the diver to take responsibility and that can only be done through education and training.

But lets just go ahead and assume that all of the above is anecdotal nonsense.

The problem we are beginning to see with the creation of recreational rebreathers is the development of a mindset that just doent work with rebreather diving.

My next door neighbor is an engineer, he's very smart, hes extremely successful, has built bridges we all know by name and can afford anything he wants, I've been through 3 of my RB's with him and finally when we went through my favorite and easiest, he said this just isnt for me, he went on to say that he didnt feel that he could remain skilled on this unit when he does 6 weeks a year of diving on vacation.

When a manufacturer like Poseidon makes impossible claims they need to be held accountable. No other manufacturer has crossed the line that Poseidon has, theyre not promoting or advertising they are just lying.
 
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