DiveGirl, please don't tar us all with the same brush. Even though many of us ( myself included ) might not like/want a system like this, we are not all anti new developments. Each to their own.

Time will tell if these ideas are

a). Good ones
and
b). commercially viable

a) and b) can be mutually exclusive .... or not

the Cis-Lunar Mk5 springs to mind immediately.


Don't take it to heart, we'll argue over which is better, eCCR, mCCR or hCCR so why should eSCR be let off the hook? :o

Heck we'll argue which eCCR is better or even which o2 cell is best or which trimix blend is best as a DIL for which depth!

:deadhorse

Enjoy the ride.
 
Yet statistics show that accidents overall, specifically accidents resulting in deaths are one their way down! How can anyone argue that driving is not safer than it used to be... even with the "idiots" and the computers in vehicles that are supposedly making us worse drivers?

Link to statistics

I can't help but think with some level of confidence that rebreathers will follow suit as have other sports/industries - freediving and skydiving being two of which I would say are on the same plane as rebreather diving and also two sports that are enjoying better safety rates over the last few years because of standardized instruction and arguably a lower bar of entry. I would also say that TECHNOLOGY has something to do with the increased safety - that could come from better equipment for the sport, better equipment for STUDYING the sport etc.

Hello Josh,

Your post neatly articulates the crux of the issue, but not in the way you intended.

The link to the motor vehicle statistics showing declining per unit (vehicles, mileage etc) fatality rates merely serves to highlight the lack of such comparative data for CCR diving. While limited data for number of fatalities may exist, there is no denominator data from which CCR fatality rates can be reasonably determined. For example relative fatality rates for mCCR, eCCR, hCCR or total CCR usage.

Some people may have access to manufacturer sales data, but how many of those units are still in use, how many dives per annum, depth/overhead etc?

Is mCCR diving safer than eCCR, or SCR and eSCR safer than CCR? I don't believe anyone can give a definitive answer, though we all may have an opinion.

The foregoing leads to the second assumption in your post that more/new/simpler technology leads(or potentially leads to) to a safer/better diving experience.

While such technology can lead to an easier diving experience (machine does tasks which previously were done manually), it is not necessarily any safer because user reliance/dependence on technology may result in attitudinal (e.g. complacency) or behavioural changes (e.g. don't need to look at handset because its always stable) which expose diver to increased risk when technology fails or has unintended outcomes.

My comments above are not directed to arguing an elitist view of SCR/CCR only for the tech gods, but to suggest that if one wishes to create better learning paths for OC divers into rebreather diving, that a lower technology solution e.g. mCCR may be a better approach than eSCR.

The answer to the question of making entry level rebreather diving more affordable, is quite simple, people buy a second-hand unit. We don't have to build a new shining mouse-trap, if the old one can be cleaned up and given a proper service. Just as with rebreathers, both will kill just as effectively.

Regards,
Tony
 
Hello Josh,

Your post neatly articulates the crux of the issue, but not in the way you intended.

The link to the motor vehicle statistics showing declining per unit (vehicles, mileage etc) fatality rates merely serves to highlight the lack of such comparative data for CCR diving. While limited data for number of fatalities may exist, there is no denominator data from which CCR fatality rates can be reasonably determined. For example relative fatality rates for mCCR, eCCR, hCCR or total CCR usage.

Some people may have access to manufacturer sales data, but how many of those units are still in use, how many dives per annum, depth/overhead etc?

Is mCCR diving safer than eCCR, or SCR and eSCR safer than CCR? I don't believe anyone can give a definitive answer, though we all may have an opinion.

You are right in some ways.... We don't have an authority providing the statistics.... What I am trying to say is that I believe rebreather diving will follow a similar path.

As far as which rebreather is safer, so far the most definitive answer was given at RF3: they are all the same. My opinion- the Explorer has the ability to tilt the scales (even with less experienced divers) because of the safety features built in.




Sent from my rebreather using Tapatalk
 
You are right in some ways.... We don't have an authority providing the statistics.... What I am trying to say is that I believe rebreather diving will follow a similar path.

As far as which rebreather is safer, so far the most definitive answer was given at RF3: they are all the same. My opinion- the Explorer has the ability to tilt the scales (even with less experienced divers) because of the safety features built in.




Sent from my rebreather using Tapatalk

The Poseidon Mark VI was labelled as the safest rebreather, with all its bells, whistles and checks.
In the year or so that it has been commercially available, there has been 3 or 4 fatalities already, I am trying to remember the count from memory, but I can be incorrect with 1 count either side.
The latest happened on 21 March 2013 in South Africa, Aliwal Shoal, Natal South Coast if I am not mistaken.
Only a fool will solely rely on built in safety features, and even built in safety features are not that safe...
 
The Poseidon Mark VI was labelled as the safest rebreather, with all its bells, whistles and checks.
In the year or so that it has been commercially available, there has been 3 or 4 fatalities already, I am trying to remember the count from memory, but I can be incorrect with 1 count either side.
The latest happened on 21 March 2013 in South Africa, Aliwal Shoal, Natal South Coast if I am not mistaken.
Only a fool will solely rely on built in safety features, and even built in safety features are not that safe...
There is only so much you can do to prevent people from their own 'stupidity.

The first fatality was down to someone breaking the system's safety rules when the system was pretty much saying, 'don't dive'. You can't blame the design for that.

Not sure of the Galapagos incident if that was the 2nd; I have seen nothing in the public domain.

And we won't know the causality behind the South African for a little while.

However, given all the information out there about other OC and CCR fatalities, I would hazard a guess that causality will be down to the user 'breaking the rules' not the CCR failing without the user knowing about the failure.

You are right that you can't design all of the failures of a system and that people still need to be aware of the risks they are taking. Look to OC for that... However, the realms under which you can/should use the Explorer and the Mk VI means that the risks are further mitigated. One of the major risks with CCR is the consistent reliability of the O2 cells, but Arne seems to have come up with a useful way of mitigating their shortfalls.

Regards
 
The latest happened on 21 March 2013 in South Africa, Aliwal Shoal, Natal South Coast if I am not mistaken.
Only a fool will solely rely on built in safety features, and even built in safety features are not that safe...

Really, that's sad. Any more info available?

As far as I know there have been one incindent where the diver did a surface swim and the disco did'nt provide oxygene since it didn't go in to dive mode. This is now fixed.

Then one fatal accident where the diver ignored all the alarms going off because battery test failed. Diver went in the water anyway (amazing) and the Disco did it's best until battery was depleted.

Then one third accident, fatal as well, with nothing official published yet but for the moment looks like diver was struck with sudden illness.

So only the first incident, which was not fatal, was due to the Disco as I see it. And it's fixed.

I'm not saying you should rely on safety features alone, but if an alarm goes off you should take appropriate action. If you choose not to, you're just an accident waiting to happen anyway. The fact that it happens to be an RB that kills you is only a random choice from Darwin.


/nils
 
I would just like to add a few comments here. Some have mentioned that SCR is a dead technology and have compared this unit to the Dreager Dolphin. Well this is not exactly a Dolphin and some of the deficiencies that made the active scr market obsolete have been addressed.
I have been diving RBs almost exclusively for 7 years now and frankly hate diving OC. I found this unit to be simple, quick to set up and quite capable of doing light, non-deco dives which is what many of my dives are. I still enjoy the warm moist gas, I still enjoy the easy work of breathing and lightweight uncluttered feel of it on my back. I was according to Matt Addison the first non-Hollis staffer to dive the unit. When he gave it to me to try he gave me very little direction, "let's see how you do". Other than a failed negative pressure test due to an incorrectly installed washer all went pretty well. Remember I had only just laid eyes on this thing minutes before.
I think there will be plenty of recreational divers looking for the benefits of RB without all the hassle, bulk and weight of a full-on CCR.
Personally I think Hollis has found a winner here. The market may be ready for rec/RB and if so this thing will be just the ticket.
I for one will be getting one as soon as I can.
 
I for one will be getting one as soon as I can.

Mine is on it's way!

There has been some concern expressed as to my "commercial involvement" or interest in this unit. I was never trying to hide the fact that I will be (in fact, already have...) selling these units. I will be happy to take orders from any of you as well ;)

That being said, as you get to know me I think you will realize I am not the type of person to push something, or "talk it up" just because I sell it. I don't have to!

I have plenty of great products to sell. I also have some not so great products to sell... if you really want them I will sell them to you. And then I have access to some products that I WILL NOT sell you because I believe they are not safe.

Anyway - hopefully that eases some people's concerns. I have access to dive several different CCR units, and I am excited to get my hands my personal Explorer to do some easy, shallow diving with a great, light-weight rebreather.
 
One thing that I forgot to mention about the unit in the original write up-

There are 3 ways this unit tries it's best to protect you from a CO2 hit:
  1. Gaseous CO2 senor & alarms
  2. Scrubber timer & alarms
  3. Oxygen (Nitrox) injecting tracking & alarms by keeping track of how much gas the solenoid injects

Just thought I would add that in case people hadn't heard of or thought about it before.
 
As someone who if firmly outside "the club" right now, I find it interesting that everyone seems so up in arms about the introduction of a new breed of rebreather. It seems just like every argument about new technology. We may as well argue the merits of color photography over black and white photography. Creating a new dive experience is not simply lowering the bar for rebreather divers- it's educating and attracting a new audience. It's a great opportunity for divers like myself to become involved in rebreather diving. Interest in a recreational rebreather does not make me a "half wit." I'm not stupid. I'm a good diver. I'm perfectly capable of become well-trained on the Explorer or any other rebreather. I'm just not sure that I want to invest the time and money on a more involved rebreather at this juncture. The explorer sounds like a great opportunity for divers like me to expand our diving and education opportunities, even if we risk missing out on the official "rebreather club" card.

Just for full disclosure here, aren't you married to one of the Thornton boys? Not saying you cannot have your own opinion, but something seems a bit funny in this thread.
 
Just for full disclosure here, aren't you married to one of the Thornton boys? Not saying you cannot have your own opinion, but something seems a bit funny in this thread.

Guess again!:wavey:

You must be thinking of WackyDiver
 
Well it's not taken long for CCRX to turn in to the new burgerworld.

Well sold Clare!

Feck me is that you Linda :mad:

Touche!

Didn't mean to sound snappy, just pointing out that if he was no longer interested in reading, he could not be bothered with notifications.

I'll back down for a bit as it looks like I need a little time out :smackbum:

In the mean time let's try and redirect the discussion to the Explorer rebreather.
 
Touche!

Didn't mean to sound snappy, just pointing out that if he was no longer interested in reading, he could not be bothered with notifications.

I'll back down for a bit as it looks like I need a little time out :smackbum:

In the mean time let's try and redirect the discussion to the Explorer rebreather.

Don't give up your day job, Josh! :0
 
Having been critical off the sentinel and the way technology was implemented in that unit from a reliability point of view, I have to say the explorer on the surface does not seem to be trouble by design with the same issues. It should be a far more reliable unit than the sentinel. If people can remember what it is for, ie shallow only diving, it may yet prove to be a world beater. It still needs all the SCR skills to dive that SCR requires, but is easier to set up than old SCR's . So in some way CCR (ie fixed versus variable PO2) is easier to dive and manage. It has no reall improvement from Deco/ NDL point of view compared to OC Nitrox scuba single tank diving, and it still requires sorb! so you have to manage that, and these are all the things that meant SCR was replaced originally in the market place by CCR, as you got greater benefit from CCR for the same amount of effort, so it may only ever enjoy a limited market penetration. The only thing I find off putting is the "rule" about repacking the scrubber. Reality has showed that people can and do get that right, so saying people cant repack there own scrubber just opens the door for after market people to make a replacement (that hopefully fits with the indicator mechanism).

Do I see any value in me diving on over my current gear, not really. Would I dive one on holiday somewhere warm if it was for hire rather than lug mine, most likely . More so than say a mark VI.

Matthew
 
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