Accident in Finland
- Thread starter Igor
- Start date
In twenty years, you may not be able to do a lot of things! :thumbsup:
Igor
Ingemar Lundgren
Same thing on the JJ CCR. You have to do many things wrong to get in a hypoxic situation. Ignore check lists, ignore pre dive breathing, ignore the flashing HUD, ignore the hand set etc. Still accidents happen. Not that pre breath and check lists eliminates risk but they sure help a great deal. In this accident we don´t know what happened though.
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hoffi
Member
Bit too much of a sidetrack possibly but whats the beef when forced into unexpected taskload at the surface, maybe even with a scrubber well used,
for some unavoidable scenario we could think up for wreckdiving with quite some swell etc.
a. get off loop
b. accept high vo2 combined with near 100% fo2 as its no prob on a low WOB CCR
c. does not happen as taskload can be avoided in any circumstances
It's a pSCR-dummy question maybe but I figure you're well experienced with
walking both parks by now, so good person to ask.
THX,
Hoffi
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Igor
Ingemar Lundgren
Not sure if i understand your question Hoffi. But unexpected task loading is a real risk on CCR and i think having a protocol where you manually bump up the po2 to near 1.0 before you jump in and keeping the loop 100% o2 down to 6m could be beneficial for several reasons.
First if your o2 supply is not working you would notice it quickly as you can not add gas. If something unexpected would happen like being run over by a boat you may not keep much attention to your HUD and handset. This is the time the devil will strike and your solenoid fails closed. Having near 100% o2 in the loop will buy you a lot of time if you would lose track of your Po2. Keeping a habit of running the unit as a o2 rebreather at surface and down to 6m should eliminate a lot of shallow water hypoxic situations. And it is near the surface most hypoxic situations seem to occur.
First if your o2 supply is not working you would notice it quickly as you can not add gas. If something unexpected would happen like being run over by a boat you may not keep much attention to your HUD and handset. This is the time the devil will strike and your solenoid fails closed. Having near 100% o2 in the loop will buy you a lot of time if you would lose track of your Po2. Keeping a habit of running the unit as a o2 rebreather at surface and down to 6m should eliminate a lot of shallow water hypoxic situations. And it is near the surface most hypoxic situations seem to occur.
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hoffi
Member
Thanks for your answer, thinking too complicated and too much bellow pSCR I'd guess.
Michael Thornton
Rebreather Enthusiast
I know it does not substitute for diver error which is why I said the following in my first post:
All of the comments about just look at your handsets are irrelevant. No duh looking at the handsets is a good idea. That could be an argument for diving without a HUD. Even without a HUD you can monitor your PO2 but personally I will not go back to diving without one. Not because I will die instantly without one but because I feel it is safer to have a HUD.
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
Do we honestly beleave people who fail to monitor handsets or HUDs would not also fail to do a check list properly?
For me it all comes back to the nany state argument. If you expect the macheen to keep you alive automaticly, when it failes, you will die.
This is the fundimental flaw in the design of automated CCR. They allow a diver to become reactive rather than proactive. Then if the diver does not react because a warning has been missed or failed to perform corectly? Then the fall into the incident pit.
That said, the argument for checking HUDS and hand sets on or near the surface of the water is a bit thin. Plenty of times i have been in the water where i couldent read my HUD or handsets due to bright sunlight, sea conditions or task loading. Thats whay i take monitoring the loop totaly out of the equation when near the surface.
ATB
Mark
Clare
Retired - going diving
Ben Field
All IMVHO obviously...
FWIW, a few years ago I did a unscientific poll on "another" forum and asked people to tell me their "near misses" afterwards a roughly tabulated the results, 70% where O2 Empty, Off or some other fault resulting in No O2 to unit.
Since then I've always advised people make checking O2 a priority.
"Many" other faults you can spot, feel or be warned about in time to act, if you simply breath yourself to sleep noone and nothing can save you.
Since then I've always advised people make checking O2 a priority.
"Many" other faults you can spot, feel or be warned about in time to act, if you simply breath yourself to sleep noone and nothing can save you.
Most agencies that I am aware of today, do not allow instructors to turn student's air off. This was quite common back in the day, but from a liability standpoint is not permitted anymore.
SlowDiver
Member
Randy, good point. I was pretty sure the training agency would be against it. I took my CCR from Tom Mount and some pool work at his house and I remember being knocked around and messed with and I was sure he was turning off some of my valves. It turned out to be two huge Rockwell dogs swimming over me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
heyydude
Member
Hey Fred,
There should be a Club for people who got knocked around in Tom Mount's pool by those Rotweillers....! They were part of Tom's "training regimen" back in the day... lol... I'd forgotten about them until you mentioned it...
:big:
Kevin.
Mike Ferguson
WTF is that?
don't take offence but do you really think it appropriate to hijack a thread about a fatality to reminisce about old times and dogs in swimming pools?
I'm sure it was a right laugh but I was under the impression this thread was posted in incident reports to make people aware of the fact that yet another poor bugger has died and left a family devastated and discuss how a similar fatality can be avoided.
I'm sure it was a right laugh but I was under the impression this thread was posted in incident reports to make people aware of the fact that yet another poor bugger has died and left a family devastated and discuss how a similar fatality can be avoided.
If it had been me, the contents of this thread is more than I would expect in a positive way. I have got many things to think about. My history is with Classic Inspo and in my Vision I have the HUD in my wrist pointing usually to useless direction. Not familiar with the traffic lights yet. Hard to learn. I am used to look at the handset. Many times I do a small dive without stages with 12%O2 in diluent cyl at the end of the dive to check some new details in configuration or weighting. The unit might be shut off and I just do O2 flush to run it as O2 unit. I feel it is dangerous and I do think what I am doing and think I do it in a safe way. Somehow I feel this incident could have happened for me as well. I knew him and had the feeling he really did know what he was doing.
Just keep your valuable comments coming... it can happen to any of us.
Jukka
Just keep your valuable comments coming... it can happen to any of us.
Jukka
Sounds excellent advice (Not in the manual?) to tricky situations when I feel I have no time to look the display. I need to secure the HUD to the right direction.
I have been playing with lenses etc. in my mask with more or less permanent O2 myopia issues and it is not easy to see all I want. HUD is useless at my mouthpiece.
Thanks,
Jukka