matt
Well-Known Member
Take a look at Chickdiver's post and then my reply. There is no drama or large costs in taking a unit to Truk from the UK.
Matt.
Experience needed before CCR
- Thread starter Clare
- Start date
Take a look at Chickdiver's post and then my reply. There is no drama or large costs in taking a unit to Truk from the UK.
Matt.
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
So what are the comparative costs of doing the trip OC or CCR Mat?
I was under the impression it was three flights and a two day boat trip just to get there, which to me is a drama. I also understood with excess baggage and dive costs it was around £6000 which to me is expensive.
Flights diving and gas for Mexico will come in at around £1100
ATB
Mark
matt
Well-Known Member
I've never paid excess baggage so I don't know about that.
It's 3 flights, you spend most of it sat down.
It's not cheap, but your estimate is about double actual costs for a 2 week trip.
If you only do air diving then OC is cheaper as you won't spend $11/kg on lime.
Matt.
Very odd. We did 10 days at Villa deRosa and they filled our CCR tanks every evening. No problems at all.
I've taken CCR to Truk on two different trips and never had any problems whatsoever. Additionally, I was able to escape excess baggage charges on all legs of the flight. Perhaps I was just lucky!
Matthew MacLean
New Member
Mark, it sounds like your talking about getting to bikini, not truk.
rachel (sorry i hijacked matt's login)
I agree with this completely - sometimes OC is just easier especially for the shallower stuff.
I've done Truk twice on CCR (from Aus, so it is probably easier than from the UK) - no excess baggage the first time, and about $20 charged the second time.
For comparisons of OC & CC cost for truk, I've got a spreadsheet at home that I can post if required, but from memory, the cost difference was huge,
Thanks,
Robert
matt
Well-Known Member
We paid 7c/L for He, 3c/L for O2 & $11/kg for Sorb.
It matters not what calculation and value for money I put it will still be cheaper to go to Mexico.
Matt.
lizardland
Active Member
And ultimately if you are going to consider cave diving on CCR you need to accept that you are going to end up on OC. I find it absolutely amazing that instructors will teach full CCR cave with no OC experience. Having no baseline of knowing how far a bailout bottle will last scares me a hell of a lot more, I can't think of anywhere that I've dived CCR that I haven't dived OC first. It's all very well saying you can SCR out (which is incredibly tiring on a long swimming bailout) but unless you make the assumption that your unit won't flood or have a CO2 hit then you need to accept a worst case situation.
"Full" cave always amuses me as well, I can think of plenty of easy/comfortable OC caves that become difficult/an absolute pain on CCR. If you can't get into anywhere that OC gets into then to my mind it isn't "full" cave.
Clare
Retired - going diving
matt
Well-Known Member
I'm happy to not talk about it again.
Dave Sutton
Banned
Yeah.... just a gentle use of "Moderators Voice" again...
oke:
Threads ought to be split off and restarted by the MEMBERS as soon as something substantive changes in the topic. Yes I know it's hard... you actually need to click a button and type in a new subject header, and then to clip and paste the LAST message on the other thread as the FIRST message of the new one. That might take, oh... about 30 seconds, so I *know* it's an almost impossible chore...
The "easy thing" (I am VERY guilty of it too) is to just add "one more comment" to the existing thread, hoping that it will go back to the original. the thing is..... it never does.
:sigh:
The reason we want to do this is for ease of searching for germane information by members who may be looking for a data point years from now. Remember that your words here are immortal (or until Clare bags the entire thing because she's bored of it). In five years someone might actually want to be able to see what the difference is between OC and CCR costs to transport to Truk (Chuk now apparently). So.... a properly titled thread is helpful.
So, no bumsmacks, just everyone please help to make this the best place to meet, and do not be afraid to pick up the job yourself to start a new thread when it's appropriate. Self-Moderation is the goal.
Back to our regularly scheduled program (programme?) now... carry on!
Best,
Dave
.
oke:Threads ought to be split off and restarted by the MEMBERS as soon as something substantive changes in the topic. Yes I know it's hard... you actually need to click a button and type in a new subject header, and then to clip and paste the LAST message on the other thread as the FIRST message of the new one. That might take, oh... about 30 seconds, so I *know* it's an almost impossible chore...
The "easy thing" (I am VERY guilty of it too) is to just add "one more comment" to the existing thread, hoping that it will go back to the original. the thing is..... it never does.
:sigh:
The reason we want to do this is for ease of searching for germane information by members who may be looking for a data point years from now. Remember that your words here are immortal (or until Clare bags the entire thing because she's bored of it). In five years someone might actually want to be able to see what the difference is between OC and CCR costs to transport to Truk (Chuk now apparently). So.... a properly titled thread is helpful.
So, no bumsmacks, just everyone please help to make this the best place to meet, and do not be afraid to pick up the job yourself to start a new thread when it's appropriate. Self-Moderation is the goal.
Back to our regularly scheduled program (programme?) now... carry on!
Best,
Dave
.
paul t
New Member
Ok. So lots of talk about levels of experience in the water etc, but Rebreathers are fairly complex to maintain when compared to o/c
So what about a persons pratical abilities? Should a person that "cannot change a lightbulb" be diving a rebreather
It's ok passing mod 1 with your instructor helping with basic assembly etc, but living with a rebreather is a bit different. The units require upkeep and maintainence, and a certain level of competence is needed
A very good friend of mine recently sold his unit because he found the upkeep just too demanding. At least he realised and excepted this. There are divers out there with poorly maintained units and they are just not aware.
Anyone thinking about moving to CCR ought to be thinking about, and, made aware of what's involved in CCR ownership
You only have to look at the "Recreational Rebreathers" comming into the market to see the efforts been made to make them "idiot proof"
Paul
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
So what about a persons pratical abilities? Should a person that "cannot change a lightbulb" be diving a rebreather
It's ok passing mod 1 with your instructor helping with basic assembly etc, but living with a rebreather is a bit different. The units require upkeep and maintainence, and a certain level of competence is needed
A very good friend of mine recently sold his unit because he found the upkeep just too demanding. At least he realised and excepted this. There are divers out there with poorly maintained units and they are just not aware.
Anyone thinking about moving to CCR ought to be thinking about, and, made aware of what's involved in CCR ownership
You only have to look at the "Recreational Rebreathers" comming into the market to see the efforts been made to make them "idiot proof"
Paul
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
matt
Well-Known Member
paul t
New Member
No
Far from it
Spending 4/5 days been shown how to do something, and then been tested on it straight after, doesn't mean squat
Been able to replicate what you learned weeks and months later AND realise when you've made a mistake, AND figure out how to put it right is what im talking about
Paul
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
matt
Well-Known Member
I learnt to drive in about the same time frame and then passed my test - but I accept your point.
Perhaps some modifications to the courses are called for? What exactly I'm not sure. One thing I think quite dangerous is the propensity of an already qualified OC diver to skip mod2/3 without building the time in the shallows. I spent 100 hours over 50 days in the first winter getting used to mine - that's where I learnt CCR diving, not on the user-course.
Matt.
lizardland
Active Member
I self-taught on homebuilts but that's pretty much what I did too. It might not get the HSE approval but diving a bit of kit with a tendency to self-destruct teaches you to take things easy.
Then when i bought a KISS I made the mistake of not thinking I was a beginner, dive number three on it I took it to 53m 1/2km inside a cave, partially flooded it and caused myself a CO2 hit. When I swapped to a Mk15 I learnt my lesson and spent the rest of the summer footering about in the shallows again.
It would be nice if Mod 1 lasted about four months :spin:
Since I've just been through the process, my 2p.
Pre-CCR I'd made 1300+ dives, worked up to trimix certification and I'm pretty comfortable in the water. I'd also done a few try-dives on CCR. On the whole, though, I'm not sure pre-existing OC experience matters much.
On the plus side, I think my OC experience made the transition easier in terms of simply diving a unit; I was never stressed about being underwater or slinging a stage or switching mouthpieces.
On the other hand there are areas where OC habits have been a hindrance; the automatic, unthinking habits I've developed over the years don't work. Buoyancy control is the obvious example, but there are others such as not bothering to check my gauges on OC as often as I should because I know what my gas consumption is like spilling over into not checking my ppO2 often enough. Re-programming those habits has been and remains my toughest challenge.
Potentially more serious, there's also an insidious, back of the mind feeling that I'm an experienced diver, fergoodnesssake, and I can do it. Confidence out-stripping ability.
I also needed to change my out of the water habits a bit. After a day of UK diving I'd wash and clean my OC kit, doing the same with the unit wasn't much of a stretch, but then I took it to the Red Sea for a week to build some hours and had to develop a regular maintenance routine that wouldn't have existed on OC.
On OC I set my kit up at the start of the week and check my gas prior to each dive, then wash it off at the end of the week.
On CCR I set the unit up at the start of the week, then found it useful to open the exhale side between dives (Just disconnect the exhale hose from the mouthpiece to get rid of any spit). That took less time per dive than checking my gas, but each night I stripped the loop down, rinsed out the lungs, emptied the sorb and left everything overnight to dry thoroughly, then re-assembled and swapped cylinders the next morning. Total time an hour a day. It'll probably take less time when I've had more practice but it was more than I'd do on OC.
I had one problem that I had to resolve - a partial flood on the first dive that turned out to be due to a loose mouthpiece cable tie! Couldn't believe that such a small problem could allow so much water into the unit, it wouldn't have been an issue on OC.
Despite being a CCR newbie I didn't miss a minute of diving, however.
Pre-CCR I'd made 1300+ dives, worked up to trimix certification and I'm pretty comfortable in the water. I'd also done a few try-dives on CCR. On the whole, though, I'm not sure pre-existing OC experience matters much.
On the plus side, I think my OC experience made the transition easier in terms of simply diving a unit; I was never stressed about being underwater or slinging a stage or switching mouthpieces.
On the other hand there are areas where OC habits have been a hindrance; the automatic, unthinking habits I've developed over the years don't work. Buoyancy control is the obvious example, but there are others such as not bothering to check my gauges on OC as often as I should because I know what my gas consumption is like spilling over into not checking my ppO2 often enough. Re-programming those habits has been and remains my toughest challenge.
Potentially more serious, there's also an insidious, back of the mind feeling that I'm an experienced diver, fergoodnesssake, and I can do it. Confidence out-stripping ability.
I also needed to change my out of the water habits a bit. After a day of UK diving I'd wash and clean my OC kit, doing the same with the unit wasn't much of a stretch, but then I took it to the Red Sea for a week to build some hours and had to develop a regular maintenance routine that wouldn't have existed on OC.
On OC I set my kit up at the start of the week and check my gas prior to each dive, then wash it off at the end of the week.
On CCR I set the unit up at the start of the week, then found it useful to open the exhale side between dives (Just disconnect the exhale hose from the mouthpiece to get rid of any spit). That took less time per dive than checking my gas, but each night I stripped the loop down, rinsed out the lungs, emptied the sorb and left everything overnight to dry thoroughly, then re-assembled and swapped cylinders the next morning. Total time an hour a day. It'll probably take less time when I've had more practice but it was more than I'd do on OC.
I had one problem that I had to resolve - a partial flood on the first dive that turned out to be due to a loose mouthpiece cable tie! Couldn't believe that such a small problem could allow so much water into the unit, it wouldn't have been an issue on OC.
Despite being a CCR newbie I didn't miss a minute of diving, however.
jcook
Doing What Works
Yes they do teach all of that for CCR Cave. That was a big part of the class actually.
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
Indeed
It comes down to this. 8 years and (doing a rough count since my last proper count) 1630 hours on CCR and total forced bailouts 3. two floods and one failed dill on which I finished the dive back on CCR. So total unrecoverable dives on CCR 2.00
On both occasions I was well aware the issue was building before it became terminal
On one occasion following a total unit flood and failure of HUD and all three cells (rEvo) I could recover the loop and go pure o2 CCR or SCR if needs be
So in total for unrecoverable loops in 1630 hours under water 1 dive
I fancy those odds for my cave diving.
Its voodoo of course as my big catastrophe may be on my next dive and i am aware of this, but my trust is what i can fall back on and this allows me to enjoy cave diving.
I have done some very minor cave diving on OC (Billingshurst cave in Gozo that sort of thing) and I didn't find it fun. On CCR I find it fun.
Its that one thing of having loads of time. I find time to be both very relaxing and very stressful depending on which end I am approaching it.
I liken it to driving through Cornwall with a 1/4 tank of petrol at midnight. I am aware a 1/4 tank will do me 50 miles, I am pretty sure i am going to find an open petrol station in the next 50 miles but its Cornwall and its midnight and the chance i may end up stranded at the roadside with no petrol makes me feel uncomfortable.
Same drive, full tank of gas and I'm chilled out.
Obviously i could break down but i drive a new ish car and a good one so that small possibility doesn't bother me.
Thats the difference between OC cave and CCR cave for me.
OC bailout in a cave? I don't have to enjoy it i just have to survive it. Different set of parameters.
And please guys and girls. I am not trying to convince any one to have an epiphany on this i am just explaining why for me, Cave = CCR.
ATB
Mark