Experience needed before CCR

Perhaps i am odd but i fought hard against going CCR despite a lot of pressure from my long time dive buddy.

I had to give in (and it was reluctantly) when the cost of OC trimix diving became intolerable.

My last OC year i spent 3500 on gas. not the diving, just the gas.

QED for me spending 3500 on an inspo classic and 1000 on training was very very cheep The unit paid of its self in 18 months and now saves me many thousands of pounds every year.

Simple fact is my last trip was planned as a weeks 60-70m diving in Malin head. The trip cost me 700 + another 50 in fuel (We crammed three divers in my car and used a trailer) so £750 which i could just about afford

Gas and lime added maybe £70

Id id been on OC 6 3 hour dives would have been over £500 in gas.

I cant afford this on top of the 820 i already spent so I wouldn't have been able to go.



On the issue of elitist diving? CCR is without doubt the most complex and demanding form of diving. Demanding in attention to detail preparation and planning.

But elitist doesn't mean that. The dictionary definition of elitism is:

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.


So no CCR is not elitist but it does represent the top end of recreational diving.

For me this is not an attraction. If i could do the diving i do on a single 12 id be over the moon. In everything I do in life i am anti gizmo. I like simple intuitive things i can repair with a hammer.


I do however apreciate that some people love the whole gizmo thing. Especialy home builders.

The problem for me is that CCR shallow looses the cost saving element so it cant justify the additional task loading and challenges on the basis of cost and because most of us have access to nitrox its hard to qualify it on a logistical bases.


But hey i can find zero justification for a Ferrari 458 but id damed well buy one if i had the money spare.

ATB

Mark
 
humpbackdiving said:
Quick q - were you part of a group? Was everybody as skilled as you are? Or was the instructor trying to help others to become as good as you are? .... So looking at a group he needed to make sure all of you had plenty of chances to practise!
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One other guy in the class, and I didn't know him beforehand. As I recall, he didn't have as much cave diving experience as I did.

I don't teach CCR, but I do teach trimix and cave diving, and have for many years. I won't put random people in classes together, you either come to me as an established team or I teach you as an individual- for exactly the reason cited above. It's way to difficult to keep the class challenging for everyone without overdoing it or boring some students when the levels of skill are too widely removed.
 
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Chickdiver said:
One other guy in the class, and I didn't know him beforehand. As I recall, he didn't have as much cave diving experience as I did.

I don't teach CCR, but I do teach trimix and cave diving, and have for many years. I won't put random people in classes together, you either come to me as an established team or I teach you as an individual- for exactly the reason cited above. It's way to difficult to keep the class challenging for everyone without overdoing it or boring some students when the levels of skill are too widely removed.
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you obviously have the right aproach but you cant fault the instructor from your course for trying to bring everybody to the same level...
 
Mark Chase said:
The problem for me is that CCR shallow looses the cost saving element so it cant justify the additional task loading
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If you only consider the direct-costs then you are right - but that's a naff way to do it IMHO. What about indirect?

Try working out the actual cost per minute underwater and see what you come-up with. I make my Grenada trip £3.22/min OC versus £2.14/min CCR. But I don't really care about those costs, more value for money calculation; 55% more time underwater CCR than OC. YMMV.

Perhaps you boys and girls are getting free flights and boat rides...if so send me the link, lol.

Matt.
 
I don't get free flights or holidays but Ideal ready get 4 to 5 hour dives in Mexico open circuit so see no benefit in taking a CCR - even though I've already bought one ;)

We're off to Grenada next year. As yet undecided on taking the unit.
 
Chickdiver said:
Don,

That's interesting. As a long time cave diver who was used to operating solely on stages, I thought all the bailout switching back and forth BS was a HUGE waste of time in my CCR course. At one point Tom had us swimming in circles in the pool dropping bottles and picking them up and switching back and forth from CC to OC, and passing bottles back and forth while swimming- I kept thinking "really... I could do this in my sleep..."

Just goes to show every student has different needs when it comes to instruction, and cookie cutter classes really don't work for anything technical (my opinion). :).
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Let me clarify something. when cafve diving with just stages, life is pretty simple even if bailing out, 32% in all tanks most of the time until I get to my O2.

My paranoia comes when doing free ascent in the ocean with multiple bailout mixes. Especially if I have more than 2 mixes on my person.

So just to keep it simple for my little brain, I check every tank every time. I helps me remain in my comfort level.

Breathing from OC is still very simple and relaxing - with the exception of all that damned noise from the bubbles.
 
the dive industry is very strange.

If you are a instructor you can give a course within the standards.
But have a diver certified who is not "100% "the diver he should be on that level. Some divers will learn afterwards by building up experience some will never become better than that even after 1000 dives.

so what.... they have fun and are not as skilled as ........it is a hobby.
( the should however not place them self and other divers in a dangers position and stay away from doing thing out of there comfort zone)

The most stupid thing about dive courses is still :
The student is reviewed by his own instructor...? if he is blind and deaf and still teaches something he learned 100 years ago ...
 
Remco said:
The most stupid thing about dive courses is still :
The student is reviewed by his own instructor...? if he is blind and deaf and still teaches something he learned 100 years ago ...
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That's true, but it's worse than that IMHO - instructors (not all, but a lot) think that they only teach in the class room. As soon as you get into the water they move into examination mode!

Matt.
 
Clare said:
I don't get free flights or holidays but Ideal ready get 4 to 5 hour dives in Mexico open circuit so see no benefit in taking a CCR - even though I've already bought one ;)

We're off to Grenada next year. As yet undecided on taking the unit.
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Where as by comparison Id NEVER do a long cave dive on OC. That finite gas that gets more finite if i am stressed or working hard is just too scary for me to contemplate.

1 X CCR and 10 hour possibility of gas supply + my bailouts and i feel a lot more confident being over an hour inside a cave.


I here all the arguments about if you cant do it OC you shouldn't be doing it CCR but i consider those to be about as valid as if you cant do deep air you shouldn't be using trimix.

Mat Mexico (who has explored caves getting close to the limits of OC and has his name on the bottom of a lot of maps in Mexico) summed it up nicely for me when he said. If your cave diving and have the option of CCR then you would need to be crazy to chose OC.

As an argument for why he tells a story about an ear blockage on a long shallow dive where he had to dive in agony because he didn't have enough OC gas to manage the situation. He said had i been on CCR i could have taken the time to do my ascents inside the cave slowly but due to the limits of OC he had to suffer a ruptured eardrum and the vertigo that went with it.


CCR offers the gift of time. For me that gift means i can relax and enjoy a cave dive which i know i couldn't do on OC.


ATB

Mark
 
matthewoutram said:
If you only consider the direct-costs then you are right - but that's a naff way to do it IMHO. What about indirect?

Try working out the actual cost per minute underwater and see what you come-up with. I make my Grenada trip £3.22/min OC versus £2.14/min CCR. But I don't really care about those costs, more value for money calculation; 55% more time underwater CCR than OC. YMMV.

Perhaps you boys and girls are getting free flights and boat rides...if so send me the link, lol.

Matt.
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For my Uk diving the logistical cost of CCR is a significant saving. If i dived Nitrox depths it would have taken years to pay off my unit but eventually it would as a CCR dive is £15 where as a air and deco gas or twinset nitrox dive is now costing more than this.

In terms of dive duration, my shallow (above 40m) twinset diving run times were about the same on OC as they are now on CCR. IE on twin 12s i could do 45mins to an hour on the bottom at 40m and I do an hour on CCR.

Below 40m I have found my bottom times went up from 30mins to 45mins and staid there so a 50% increase in dive fun on CCR.

My problem with CCR diving abroad is the cost of transporting the unit and the risk of damage to the unit. For this reason Id struggle to argue its cheaper.

If i went to Truck id much prefer to be on CCR but id be tempted to do it on OC and avoid the nightmare of getting my unit out there.

ATB

Mark
 
Mark Chase said:
If i went to Truck id much prefer to be on CCR but id be tempted to do it on OC and avoid the nightmare of getting my unit out there.

ATB

Mark
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Things may be different coming from the UK, and depending on the unit, but... I've taken my Meg to Truk twice now (along with a group of others traveling with us, almost all on CCR)- no issues at all, and it really wasn't that much hassle. It was totally worth the little bit of extra logistics to do it. On the other hand, my husband and I took our Megs to Mexico a couple of years ago, and it was a logistical nightmare- not so much the traveling, but just dealing with the 'breathers where there isn't much in the way of support for them. We were talking over dinner last night about going back, only this time I think we are inclined to do it OC- its much less hassle, and while CCR does have some advantages, they don't outweigh the hassle there.
 
Chickdiver said:
Things may be different coming from the UK, and depending on the unit, but... I've taken my Meg to Truk twice now (along with a group of others traveling with us, almost all on CCR)- no issues at all, and it really wasn't that much hassle. It was totally worth the little bit of extra logistics to do it. On the other hand, my husband and I took our Megs to Mexico a couple of years ago, and it was a logistical nightmare- not so much the traveling, but just dealing with the 'breathers where there isn't much in the way of support for them. We were talking over dinner last night about going back, only this time I think we are inclined to do it OC- its much less hassle, and while CCR does have some advantages, they don't outweigh the hassle there.
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It's no different from the UK - not all Mark's opinions are actual fact ;-)
 
GLOC said:
Assuming you have a problem that doesn't necessitate you to bail out...

Regards
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Which is a rebreather fault not a dive issue.

Then we have OC SCR and pure 02 CCR to fall back on.

The fact is CCR faults on non intrusive CCRs are usualy not insermountable. It lmits the faults to unrecoverable flood or C02 hit.

All other CCR issues are managable on unit or leave the unit able to suport a OC bailout which would be my prefered option.

If you plan the bailout properly then all the other options are in reserve.

Ultimatly its down to what scares you the most. For me its getting lost in the cave on a finite gas supply that ever worsened by increased SAC as my sters grows. Which is why I prefer to cave dive on CCR.

Its likley this is because i have 1500+ hours on CCR and less than 100 hours in caves.

ATB

Mark
 
matthewoutram said:
It's no different from the UK - not all Mark's opinions are actual fact ;-)
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Sorry whats no diferent from the UK


I have been to Mexico and its a direct flght or via Miami but Truck is a two day journy with multiple transits.

Admitedly Miami is a nightmare for Mexico but Thomas Cook will get you there direct in 14 hours which just limits the problem to excess baggage cost.

I dont see this as a drama and i am out in Mexico in Feb with my CCR


ATB

Mark
 
matthewoutram said:
It's no different from the UK - not all Mark's opinions are actual fact ;-)
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Exactly, in another thread I posted a photo of my entire JJ in a Peli 1600. Total weight 25kg. That went to Bikini and back with no excess baggage charges and the only time I saw it was at SFO where I had to take it about 100m to the United connection conveyor. The only 'nightmare' would have been a no-show of my bags.

I couldn't imagine going to Truk without a rebreather. The only open circuit diving I ever intend to do again will be bailout practice.
 
Mark Chase said:
Sorry whats no diferent from the UK


I have been to Mexico and its a direct flght or via Miami but Truck is a two day journy with multiple transits.

Admitedly Miami is a nightmare for Mexico but Thomas Cook will get you there direct in 14 hours which just limits the problem to excess baggage cost.

I dont see this as a drama and i am out in Mexico in Feb with my CCR


ATB

Mark
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Are you flying bottles to MX? Who are you getting gas from? (truly curious here, as that was where our issues were). We rented bottles from Matt, and they weren't what we asked for, nor were they full (which they were supposed to be) when we picked them up. Then we had to deal with the hassle of getting them filled, etc. Villas deRosa refused to fire up thier compressor to fill dil for us (despite the fact that we were staying there). We ended up spending 3/4 of our time running around dealing with fills and not doing nearly as much diving as we would have liked.
 
I think a lot of OC experience is good. I don't know that there is much that is transferable but being able to keep your head and just have some underwater commonsense is worth the effort to gain. I suppose you could do that on CCR but it isn't exactly forgiving and bailing out isn't the time to find out you aren't comfortable. Anyone can dive a working unit. I've always looked on CCR as a way of doing 9m dives with a 90m mindset.

The big thing I've noticed from watching people in training is the inability to slow down. You get on a finite gas source and suddenly you need to go at a million miles an hour. If you have enough gas then what do you have to worry about? Slow down, sort yourself out.

I doubt a head full of CO2 cares about whether you were good on OC or not, it's a great leveller.

I still love OC diving, I had a nice 57m dip last Sunday. Everything is just a tool in the box.

Remco said:
this is proof "there are bad instructors":bounce:
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15min in the pool and I had a RB cert from someone who would be considered at the top of his game even today.

If you want some truly bad instructors then get into boating, RYA PB2 cert (which can be commercially endorsed to take passengers 3nm from a safe harbour) from a whopping 45min at the helm. 60% of that time was in a marina.
 
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