CO2 Monitor (End-tidal) - good news

We got O2 Cells for pPO2.

I'd rather stick with the devil I know (i.e. O2 Cells), than the one I don't (transdermal measurement of O2).

However, once we get the trasndermal sensor working fine with a board and fully secure in position (stuck to the skin) at the right location for measuring arterial CO2, conceptually it could be used to verify pPO2 as well at the blood level... one step at the time though.

The priority for me is getting the transdermal sesnsor working for arterial CO2 measurments, and that is my next Homebuilder project priority.

Did you (or anyone else) measure breath-by-breath and plot the corresponding end-tidal PCO2 from the transdermal sensor and the actual expired-end-tidal PCO2 from, say, an anaesthetics machine? If so what does the curve look like?

Put another way how accurate is transdermal measurement of PCO2 - any delta from that measured at the mouth?

Matt.
 
Did you (or anyone else) measure breath-by-breath and plot the corresponding end-tidal PCO2 from the transdermal sensor and the actual expired-end-tidal PCO2 from, say, an anaesthetics machine? If so what does the curve look like?

Put another way how accurate is transdermal measurement of PCO2 - any delta from that measured at the mouth?

Matt.

Yes, peer reviewed scientific research shows high correlation and concludes it is a highly effective (transdermal measurement) method to measure end-tidal CO2 as an alternative to conventional methods.

This is what triggered my Homebuilder project.
 
Transdermal monitoring is old technology, mainly used in slerp medicine. There's decades worth of research available. It's not terribly accurate in numerical values but it will track a change in baseline well enough. As an example we use both transdermal monitoring and arterial samples on our patients. The transdermal might be off upwards of 0,8 mmHg when we determine starting values. It will track a change in pCO2 at around +/- 0,1 though. Ie actual CO2 is 5,3, transdermal says 6,0. It rises to 6,5 and transdermal says 7,3. Just an example but is a fair approximation of my experiences. It should be noted that the equipment I use is ancient though, newer stuff is likely more accurate but either way I'd argue that it's really only the change from baseline that is important.

When it comes to response times ours are in the region of 2-3 minutes. Modern units claim 30 seconds or less. Personally I do not think instantaneous CO2 symptoms are likely in a rebreather setting unless we're talking bad gas so even the slower response is likely ok and if the fast response is true that's definitely enough.

The idea of transdermal monitoring has been a pet for me the last few years and I've posted on rbw a few times and even emailed Dr Mitchell once (no response though). Now that I actually dive a ccr it's a higher priority, I've actually pondered doing a combined CO2-hit/monitoring project. No technical know-how and no entrepreuneurial spirit means it'd be for the sake of curiosity more than anything else.

As an aside, Giana. Did you try placing the probe on the sternum? Reasonable blood flow, thin skin and little movement.
 
Transdermal monitoring is old technology, mainly used in slerp medicine. There's decades worth of research available. It's not terribly accurate in numerical values but it will track a change in baseline well enough. As an example we use both transdermal monitoring and arterial samples on our patients. The transdermal might be off upwards of 0,8 mmHg when we determine starting values. It will track a change in pCO2 at around +/- 0,1 though. Ie actual CO2 is 5,3, transdermal says 6,0. It rises to 6,5 and transdermal says 7,3. Just an example but is a fair approximation of my experiences. It should be noted that the equipment I use is ancient though, newer stuff is likely more accurate but either way I'd argue that it's really only the change from baseline that is important.

When it comes to response times ours are in the region of 2-3 minutes. Modern units claim 30 seconds or less. Personally I do not think instantaneous CO2 symptoms are likely in a rebreather setting unless we're talking bad gas so even the slower response is likely ok and if the fast response is true that's definitely enough.

The idea of transdermal monitoring has been a pet for me the last few years and I've posted on rbw a few times and even emailed Dr Mitchell once (no response though). Now that I actually dive a ccr it's a higher priority, I've actually pondered doing a combined CO2-hit/monitoring project. No technical know-how and no entrepreuneurial spirit means it'd be for the sake of curiosity more than anything else.

As an aside, Giana. Did you try placing the probe on the sternum? Reasonable blood flow, thin skin and little movement.

The probe goes where the scientific study has proven that it works.

I hope Dr. Simon Mitchell will tell us more about this peer reviewed scientific study published recently as this is his field.

The silence is deafening, which means it works and there is substantial commercial interest (and military) .
 
I'm confused......

You say its an end-tidal CO2 monitor but you've put it in the inhale counterlung?

How does it measure end-tidal CO2 if its downstream of the scrubber or have you got your inhale counterlung somewhere really funky?
 
I'm confused......

You say its an end-tidal CO2 monitor but you've put it in the inhale counterlung?

How does it measure end-tidal CO2 if its downstream of the scrubber or have you got your inhale counterlung somewhere really funky?

Not surprised you are confused.

I have a Homebuilt inhale CO2 Monitor with HUD and this is now being developed commercially by Golem (no HUD so far).

It works, subject to a few precautions, like not keeping it stored in a wet rebreather.

The arterial transdermal CO2 Monitor is a new and separate Homebuilder project - work in progress.
 
The probe goes where the scientific study has proven that it works.

I hope Dr. Simon Mitchell will tell us more about this peer reviewed scientific study published recently as this is his field.

The silence is deafening, which means it works and there is substantial commercial interest (and military) .

Sternal application is pretty much standard in sleep medicine. It's more practical since it means the probe will stay put even with significant movement. Clavicular application (which I assume you're using) works if you sedate the patient or use superglue ;)

Anyway it's nice to hear about work and research being done. Please keep us updated. Build it and I'll buy one.
 
more so now as you've not answered the questions



how is an inhale CO2 monitor going to measure end-tidal CO2?

I think there a 2 devices that are unrelated. The first, not useful IMHO (but many companies going to make £100's out of it), the second perhaps useful - if accurate and if there is something practical I stricken diver can do once the alarm blows.

Matt.
 
Sternal application is pretty much standard in sleep medicine. It's more practical since it means the probe will stay put even with significant movement. Clavicular application (which I assume you're using) works if you sedate the patient or use superglue ;)

Anyway it's nice to hear about work and research being done. Please keep us updated. Build it and I'll buy one.

How is it attached, Johan?
 
The ones I've got personal experience with are taped to the skin. This is technology from the early eighties we're using though. Modern units use vacuum for adhesion. I've never seen the new stuff in the flesh though, we don't have the need.
 
The ones I've got personal experience with are taped to the skin. This is technology from the early eighties we're using though. Modern units use vacuum for adhesion. I've never seen the new stuff in the flesh though, we don't have the need.

Thanks.
 
more so now as you've not answered the questions



how is an inhale CO2 monitor going to measure end-tidal CO2?

You are "special" - so I'll try again just for you.

The inhale CO2 monitor (same as the one Golem is commercialising) is simply a Go/NoGo monitor.

When your inhale CO2 goes above a set alarm (say 0.50% CO2), you bail-out.

It does not measure end-tidal CO2 or arterial CO2.

The other device I and others are working on, does not go in the inhale counterlung (or in any part of the rebreather) and uses a different technology which on land has been proven to be highly reliable in measuring arterial CO2. The sensor is transdermal and goes on the body of the diver itself.

I hope the above is a satisfactory answer, but feel free to ask the same question again and again and again if you still can't get it:juggle:

I am sure Dr. Simon Mitchell could explain it much better than I can (it is not my field of expertise).
 
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I hope the above is a satisfactory answer, but feel free to ask the same question again and again and again if you still can't get it:juggle:

thats rich coming from you......

well the title of your thread is somewhat misleading as you state 'end-tidal' but none of what your talking about is measuring end tidal.
 
thats rich coming from you......

well the title of your thread is somewhat misleading as you state 'end-tidal' but none of what your talking about is measuring end tidal.

Maybe the quote below which is the opening of the thread can help your understanding, but feel free to ask again, and again, and again, and again until all these sensations of confusion :juggle: fizz away.

I have in the last year or so experimented with a novel CO2 sensor mounted on the inhale side, in a modified Meg inhale counterlung, and it works very well.

No false alarms, and accurate enough for the purpose of alerting the diver when CO2 increases over a pre-set alarm amount of choice (i.e. 0.5%).

It is fairly resistant to humidity induced errors, provided it is inserted in the rebreather just before the dive, and removed from the rebreather after the dive (i.e. it is not left unnecessarily exposed to the loop humidity during transport and storage), and of course is placed in a proper location in the rebreather (not where the O2 Cells normally are).

Provided the above pre-cautions are used, it can go several hours without drifting away (usually up when it drifts) from humidity.

The product is now sold and available from a well known and reputable manufacturer, but it will not work for a number of reasons as an end-tidal CO2 monitor (i.e. on the exhale side).

I'd like to give heads-up to all homebuilders (and rebreather manufacturers) that I am working (thanks to a tip from a fellow diver through internet forums) on an end-tidal CO2 monitor based on a different technology and research. It utilises a dermal infrared sensor made by Sentec.

Recent research has shown that the measurement of transcutaneous carbon dioxide at the infraclavicular site is feasible with a digital sensor and has a good correlation with the carbon dioxide values obtained from the arterial blood gas.

I have no commercial interest in diving and the rebreathers business and I am sharing this "tip" publicly so that the more people start experimenting with this technology for our application, the sooner it will become available to all, the cheaper and the better it will be.
 
:uhh:
lol - nope still don't see how your measuring end-tidal....

Well, try and get Matthew to explain to you... if he can rate APD to the level of Apple, then I guess you two can talk on a level playing field.

If you still feel a bit :uhh:, then I'll try and source the original peer reviewed scientific research and if it does not breach Copyright will post it in my forum for you to see (somehow I do not think is going to help you though).

Oh, if only Apple made rebreathers :rotate: !
 
lol - nope still don't see how your measuring end-tidal....

End-tidal has been the only discussion on the subject for years, it's easy enough to start calling all CO2 monitoring end-tidal. Measuring transdermal isn't end-tidal either, it's something better. Why not just skip arguing about semantics and focusing on the technology and the possibilities? Doesn't really matter what it's called.
 
:uhh:

Well, try and get Matthew to explain to you... if he can rate APD to the level of Apple, then I guess you two can talk on a level playing field.

You've missed the point on Apple, let's move on and drop the bitchy remarks, thanks.

Matt.
 
You've missed the point on Apple, let's move on and drop the bitchy remarks, thanks.

Matt.

I can be humorous as well, but I would indeed rather prefer you and your mates keep it decent here and not turn it like in the other forum.

Capisce?
 
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