You look and find the loop hypoxic....

[Cameron]

BAIL OUT!.... If I have been so incredibly careless as too let my ppo2 get down that low then it is a major electronics issue or I am impared in some fashion. I want breathable gas right away....and I'll sort the unit out afterwards.

I really do not buy this "figure it out for each specific circumstance" thing. My FIRST reaction to anything questionable on the unit is BOV. I have plenty of gas and it's super simple to get the unit back on spec when I'm clear headed. There's nothing worse then pushing a button, looking at your handsets an hoping you don't black out.


I totally agree with Michael here.

When I think of hypoxic I think of something low enough to make the vibrator go off. .18. I would DIL flush (the way I Dil flush with the shrimp BOV is to
Bail out
Flush
Check PO2 is breathable
Go back on loop
Solve problem.

So I bailout just because that is the way I dil flush with the shrimp BOV. I then go right back on the loop once it is breathable so as not to waste my BO supply.

To me that is the fastest way of getting a known breathable gas in my mouth without wasting too much bailout gas.


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[Megangel1]

Bailout.

Check o2 turned on and contents gauge, check setpoint is set.
If above is OK, then something is seriously wrong somewhere, return to surface.
If O2 was turned off, turn on check gauge, (kick self multiple times) DIL flush, back on loop if ppo2 is appropriate value for DIL and depth otherwise return to surface.

 

[Jeff Pack]

Hmm, this thread is enlightening. Cameron I think just made the best point that has caused me (based upon my own experience with a lights out hypoxic event) to reconsider my reaction (Hit O2 button)

"There's nothing worse then pushing a button, looking at your handsets an hoping you don't black out."

If mine every gets that low, its bail out, and figure out whats up.

 

[Mr fish]

Hmm, this thread is enlightening. Cameron I think just made the best point that has caused me (based upon my own experience with a lights out hypoxic event) to reconsider my reaction (Hit O2 button)

"There's nothing worse then pushing a button, looking at your handsets an hoping you don't black out."

If mine every gets that low, its bail out, and figure out whats up.

Don't want to sound like a twat , but reading your post on your event , it seems to me it was way to late and you would have passed out no matter what you did ,

Ps
This thread has gone from a low ppo2 of .18 to at deaths door, if your at death,s door you have fooked it up long be 4 you hit what ever button / bail out or all the other shite I be tween ,

If you have let it get that close to deaths door how's to know what will and won't work ,

Threads turning in to another wank fest,

 

[Jeff Pack]

Maybe not?

Lets say given that same event, in the case of if I just had happened to look and saw myself at .14(so you've got one foot out the door already), BO would have been a better option than an O2 squirt, as the O2 squirt would have failed, and I'd have blacked out anyways.

Where I think Camerons point still stands, is not having that assumption that your O2 supply is still good. It may not be, and that hope of an O2 squirt keeping you from passing out may not happen

 

[matt]

Maybe not?

Lets say given that same event, in the case of if I just had happened to look and saw myself at .14, BO would have been a better option than an O2 squirt, as the O2 squirt would have failed, and I'd have blacked out anyways.

Where I think Camerons point still stands, is not having that assumption that your O2 supply is still good. It may not be, and that hope of an O2 squirt keeping you from passing out may not happen

Why would your O2 supply be no good? You analysed it before you fitted it, right? And you calibrated with it, right?

I don't see why bailing out in this case should be even on the cards, never mind the first port of call.

Matt.

 

[snarkcon5]

The problem with the "classic" way of flushing by dipping the ADV lower than the OPV is that it does get dil to your mouth faster but is a much less adequate way of flushing the loop IMHO. We've discussed this before and despite Dave's penchant for the Venturi effect, flushing from inhale tee piece to exhale CL and OPV does not flush the head or canister. So I would say you are getting dil "at the expense of" a proper flush.

In the context of this thread, the point is you get known gas immediately. If you're looking at a PO2 of .18 and have decided to dil flush, you likely care more about getting good gas than checking cells.

Doing it the second way by adding a dil MAV to the exhale CL and letting the gas escape through loose lips at the mouthpiece will flush the exhale CL, exhale short hose, canister & head, inhale short hose, inhale CL, and inhale long hose to the mouthpiece. The only thing not flushed will be the exhale long hose between the mouthpiece and the exhale tee piece. And Venturi should certainly take care of that. Or using the MAV built in to the ADV in conjunction with a BOV like the Shrimp when turned to Bailout mode will force the added dil backwards through the loop and head and do a more complete flush before going out the OPV in the exhale CL.

One could debate forever about what's actually happening to the loop during a flush, but for practical purposes I'll bet either method is sufficient to determine if you have a cell problem.

 

[Mr fish]

Maybe not?

Lets say given that same event, in the case of if I just had happened to look and saw myself at .14(so you've got one foot out the door already), BO would have been a better option than an O2 squirt, as the O2 squirt would have failed, and I'd have blacked out anyways.

Where I think Camerons point still stands, is not having that assumption that your O2 supply is still good. It may not be, and that hope of an O2 squirt keeping you from passing out may not happen

My O2 is good i know it's good I tested it be4 I put it in the unit I used it all the time I was above 6m .I did a O2 spike on the way down ,
What you pressed or didn't press had nothing to with it , you put your self at risk by letting the unit run the ppo2 when you had no need to, 6m or less run O2 in th unit ,
But to do that you do need to turn it on and have it plumbed in ,
And if you done you will know that right of the bat ,

 

[kwinter]

In the context of this thread, the point is you get known gas immediately. If you're looking at a PO2 of .18 and have decided to dil flush, you likely care more about getting good gas than checking cells.


One could debate forever about what's actually happening to the loop during a flush, but for practical purposes I'll bet either method is sufficient to determine if you have a cell problem.

My post had nothing whatsoever to do with checking cells. It was strictly about flushing the loop. Your point is taken that the MAV on the inhale lung gives you your known dil gas immediately. But your next breath will still include the unknown or bad gas from the scrubber. Even flushing from the inhale MAV to the exhale OPV may not flush the scrubber. But flushing by a MAV to the exhale CL and letting the gas escape through the mouthpiece will flush the entire thing in a second or two. Then you are getting fresh dil with that breath as well as subsequent ones. It's not an argument. I have both on my JJ. I just don't understand the need for a second MAV into the inhale CL other than the ability to use s shutoff on the ADV. But that has nothing to do with this thread.


iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

 

[snarkcon5]

Your point is taken that the MAV on the inhale lung gives you your known dil gas immediately. But your next breath will still include the unknown or bad gas from the scrubber.

Right, but if my choices are known gas immediately (injected on inhale side) and questionable gas on next few breaths (waiting for known gas injected at exhale side to reach the DSV), I'd much rather have known gas immediately. If there's any questionable gas between the OPV and DSV after the flush, my body should have enough O2 reserve to tolerate it.

For me, it doesn't really matter because I wouldn't handle a hypoxic PO2 surprise by dil flushing. Someday I'll replace the O2 MAV with a gas block so I don't have to unplug the O2 to plug in offboard gas, and to make dil flushing easier.

 

[DSix36]

A couple of minor points to make on this discussion.

1 - rEvo only, We were taught that a dil flush will get safe gas to the diver faster than bailing out can. This is because the dil flush is so fast and effective in this unit. We were actually asked to attempt to prove this fact wrong, and it was not possible. This, of course, does not include a BOV into the equation.

2 - Having good O2 can mean more than just the actual gas being good and tested properly. It could also mean the delivery system is also working as should be. If the first stage is failed shut, or the tank is empty, then when you try to manually add oxygen it will not happen. You will be looking at your po2 and hoping it will go up as you fall asleep and drown. Even if you have the presence of mind to realize that there was no oxygen injected, you might not have enough time to make a second attempt and die anyway.

 

[Michael Thornton]

A couple of minor points to make on this discussion.

1 - rEvo only, We were taught that a dil flush will get safe gas to the diver faster than bailing out can. This is because the dil flush is so fast and effective in this unit. We were actually asked to attempt to prove this fact wrong, and it was not possible. This, of course, does not include a BOV into the equation.
/QUOTE]

I don't think this is specific to the REvo but rather all CCRs without BOVs.


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[snarkcon5]

rEvo only, We were taught that a dil flush will get safe gas to the diver faster than bailing out can.

I believe this to be true on the JJ in stock configuration, as well, because the gas is injected on the inhale side about a foot from the diver's mouth.

I was taught that if you feel fine and notice a problem, you can stay on the loop and correct it (dil flush, add O2, whatever depending on the problem). If you don't feel right, you need to bailout because you can't really know what the problem is (hypoxia, oxtox, CO2).

 

[Megangel1]

I find myself coming back to the question of why I only just noticed it's .18? Something has distracted my brain badly, something is setup incorrectly or something has failed very quickly. In this situation I don't want to be thinking too much.

I'd consider mark 1 brain is buggered as well as the unit and I want failsafe gas which is OC so I'd still go for the no-thinking option of switch to bailout and then think in this borderline situation.

Probably not in any training syllabus but anything major wrong with loop or if in doubt, I switch to off-board OC gas, at least three breaths, think then act.

Having said that, I do know of cases where people have put their bailout tins on the wrong sides! Could be a really bad day!

 

[Mr fish]

A couple of minor points to make on this discussion.

1 - rEvo only, We were taught that a dil flush will get safe gas to the diver faster than bailing out can. This is because the dil flush is so fast and effective in this unit. We were actually asked to attempt to prove this fact wrong, and it was not possible. This, of course, does not include a BOV into the equation.

2 - Having good O2 can mean more than just the actual gas being good and tested properly. It could also mean the delivery system is also working as should be. If the first stage is failed shut, or the tank is empty, then when you try to manually add oxygen it will not happen. You will be looking at your po2 and hoping it will go up as you fall asleep and drown. Even if you have the presence of mind to realize that there was no oxygen injected, you might not have enough time to make a second attempt and die anyway.

First stage fail shut , is that something that happen s often , Iv never had it happen to me in 30 years of diving , but if so it could just as well be the dill fail , bail out fail all 6 regs I have on my unit and side cans
Fail .

I know shit happens but come on

 

[Mr fish]

I find myself coming back to the question of why I only just noticed it's .18? Something has distracted my brain badly, something is setup incorrectly or something has failed very quickly. In this situation I don't want to be thinking too much.

I'd consider mark 1 brain is buggered as well as the unit and I want failsafe gas which is OC so I'd still go for the no-thinking option of switch to bailout and then think in this borderline situation.

Probably not in any training syllabus but anything major wrong with loop or if in doubt, I switch to off-board OC gas, at least three breaths, think then act.

Having said that, I do know of cases where people have put their bailout tins on the wrong sides! Could be a really bad day!

Bailout that,s just what the diver with no dill / turns off did and killed him self doing so , fook all wrong with the unit , and had a shit load of gas ,

 

[DSix36]

First stage fail shut , is that something that happen s often , Iv never had it happen to me in 30 years of diving , but if so it could just as well be the dill fail , bail out fail all 6 regs I have on my unit and side cans
Fail .

I know shit happens but come on

Stop being silly, it was just an example of a way that O2 delivery could be compromised. Would you feel better it it was a burst hose, a collapsed hose, or maybe even just a hose that was temporarily kinked. Regardless of the cause, if the flow does not happen, then you may very well not have time to do anything else.

 

[Mr fish]

Stop being silly, it was just an example of a way that O2 delivery could be compromised. Would you feel better it it was a burst hose, a collapsed hose, or maybe even just a hose that was temporarily kinked. Regardless of the cause, if the flow does not happen, then you may very well not have time to do anything else.

The point is that example could happen to all your gas delivery , I don't see the point to the post bar you may only get the one chance ,

Don't you guys have opv,s on your regs ,

Ps Iv floded a hose in half to slow down a free flowing 2nd stage , no way I could stop it flowing tho

 

[Jeff Pack]

Thats the nice part about "if in doubt, bail out"

The only assumption you've made is that your bail out system works.

Otherwise the rest of the arguments all involve a multitude of varied assumptions which may or may not be correct.

 

[Mr fish]

Thats the nice part about "if in doubt, bail out"

The only assumption you've made is that your bail out system works.

Otherwise the rest of the arguments all involve a multitude of varied assumptions which may or may not be correct.

The two deaths that started all the new threads ,
The diver bailed out cos his mask was letting in water and he pissed his loop away trying to keep some water out of his mask , water that would not have killed him .
Then when it all got to much he also made the assumption he could bailout, but his bailout was turned off
He was under some stress and added to that by trying to bailout ,
All he had to do was come up on the unit , no need to do feek all
He had a few chances to save him self and so did his two dive buddy's