lizardland
Active Member
Yeah, my heart bleeds...
What's going on here? IS this a mistake or Dirty Pool?????
- Thread starter JONT
- Start date
kwinter
PITA
To be honest, Curt, your answer does sound evasive and misleading. Of course you are entitled to a markup. But when you say "the cost to me is what it is," you make it sound like the 6778 Euro price that is in the price list posted by JJ-CCR is the price that you pay. Of course that is not true. You are not paying the retail price and then marking it up. The retail price already includes a reasonable markup for dealers, and the dealer price is somewhat lower. If the price to the consumer is 6778 Euro in Denmark, Spain, UK, etc., those dealers are also making some profit on the units they sell.
As you said, there are additional costs of doing business in the US. In addition to the shipping and import fees that might be somewhat higher than for other countries in Europe, there is that pesky American liability issue. So no one should dispute the need for a JJ here in the USA to cost a bit more than in Europe. Maybe the question is just "how much is reasonable?" But please don't talk about adding a markup to the listed price. That is what makes you sound a little greedy. If dealers all over Europe can live with the markup that is built in to the retail price, why should you be entitled to so much more profit in addition to the extra costs for liability and insurance that you have already added?
The US price of $9000 is considerably less than the $10,250 listed as the retail price. That's great. Equivalent to 7983 Euro. The European price (including dealer markup) is 6778 Euro. That leaves 1205 Euro unaccounted for. How much is shipping and import fees? I think it is about 200 Euro for a rEvo, but I could be wrong. And of course the liability issues with insurance and such. But 1000 Euro per unit? Even if there is an additional layer of profit for the additional risk? Maybe it is all above board, but it does raise some eyebrows. And when you raise Jon's eyebrows, there will be fallout.
My comparison was simple.
JJ-CCR - 6778 Euro
Roundtrip airfare to Europe -620 Euro
Mod 1 training in Europe - 850 Euro
1 week of lodging, meals and holiday - 500 Euro
Total expense - 8748 Euro, equivalent to $9903 USD.
With the US price reduced from $10,250 to $9,000, that is now about equivalent to the cost of buying a JJ and getting trained here. Without the week of European vacation.
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kwinter
PITA
Nice to see you Yanks paying for something made in Europe for a change to be honest- sorry.
Most "American" products sold here are done at Dollar to Pound parity or worse, so if its $100 we pay £100 (or more) so basically everything here costs twice as much, especially if its got the word Apple on the box ;-)
Ben (and others) - Please do not think that all of us Yanks think it is fair for you to pay Pounds on par with dollars. The analysis is the same. The additional costs of import and shipping clearly have to be covered. And there could be some additional markup for market risk. But if you absolutely must have that iPhone, the simple laws of supply and demand will apply to the pricing. Unless the government steps in and puts a tax on necessities such as tea. But that could never happen, could it?
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Silentscuba
New Member
Kwinter posted "But when you say "the cost to me is what it is," you make it sound like the 6778 Euro price that is in the price list posted by JJ-CCR is the price that you pay. "
I did not say that the price I paid was marked up from the retail pricing on the JJ website.....I said that the price on the JJ website is not the pricing for the US market.
Just like with any other importer of products into the US.....The retail price in the US is set by the importer and that is dictated by what their cost is for the product, the needed markup to pay the expenses for doing business in the US, a little profit, and the US competitive market place...people have lots of choices for CCR's here in this country and those choices are my competition.
Right now, you can also purchase these other CCR's in the US, the pricing does vary a little from place to place when you look, but here is the current competition in the US for ECCR's-
SF2 $6,950
Hollis Prism 8,999
Hammerhead 9,995
rEvo X 9,000 the February special
Meg 9,593
Evolution 8,999
Optima 9,200
Now, if you want to go purchase and train on any unit outside the US and then bring it back here, that is also everyones choice.
Enough said on my end here...I hope everyone can process this information, I have tried to be clear in my answers.
Cheers,
Curt
I did not say that the price I paid was marked up from the retail pricing on the JJ website.....I said that the price on the JJ website is not the pricing for the US market.
Just like with any other importer of products into the US.....The retail price in the US is set by the importer and that is dictated by what their cost is for the product, the needed markup to pay the expenses for doing business in the US, a little profit, and the US competitive market place...people have lots of choices for CCR's here in this country and those choices are my competition.
Right now, you can also purchase these other CCR's in the US, the pricing does vary a little from place to place when you look, but here is the current competition in the US for ECCR's-
SF2 $6,950
Hollis Prism 8,999
Hammerhead 9,995
rEvo X 9,000 the February special
Meg 9,593
Evolution 8,999
Optima 9,200
Now, if you want to go purchase and train on any unit outside the US and then bring it back here, that is also everyones choice.
Enough said on my end here...I hope everyone can process this information, I have tried to be clear in my answers.
Cheers,
Curt
lizardland
Active Member
Are there geographic restrictions on dealers eg can you order one from an EU dealer and have it shipped? I cant imagine EU law being particularly supportive of preventing it.
Even when Jetsam was in Canada I never waited more than 4-5 days for spares, same amount of time I'd be waiting for a UK to dealer to get something to me. In today's world is local support particularly important?
Even when Jetsam was in Canada I never waited more than 4-5 days for spares, same amount of time I'd be waiting for a UK to dealer to get something to me. In today's world is local support particularly important?
Superlyte27
New Member
Truer words were never spoken.
I'm really interested in the JJ. I also have a trip planned this year to Spain to visit my best friend's family from high school. Air fare is $600 round trip. The math is closer now, but still pretty far apart, especially when you consider that I'm going to Spain anyway. What a conundrum. And honestly, what's to stop me and my wife from grabbing an extra unit or two to sell back in the states? After-all my competition will be over $1k more.
This kind of sucks for Curt. I'm sure he's probably got at least 2 units in stock that he bought when the EU was a bit stronger. So now, he's faced with not selling something, selling it at cost and hoping to break even, or create competition from divers who have no problem traveling abroad. I've got two friends that travel to Europe frequently that could grab me a unit. I don't think Curt is trying to rip anyone off. I think Curt has invested a lot of time and money in this, and now because the EU tanked, he's stuck holding the bag and is trying to break even as best he can. Surely this won't happen again and no one will get caught with their pants down.
Imagine this... And I'm just guessing at numbers. Imagine Curt gets the JJ for about 2k under retail. He's gotta get the unit here, which will cost about $500 all in. He's then got to send the instructor who sold the unit $1k. So, his profit on a unit is about $500. So, he buys four, has them shipped to him. But, the EU tanks. No one wants HIS JJ because they can buy it currently for $2k less abroad. If he price matches the UK he's now lost money. He still has to pay the instructor who sold the unit. He's already paid to get it here. And he paid his top dollar when the EU was strong. I look at the math, and I don't see Curt trying to gouge. I see Curt trying to not lose money because the EU tanked. And I wish him good luck. Because the EU is about to drop more. This is only going to get worse. Soon the JJ will cost significantly less than US made rebreathers.
JONT
New Member
Hi Jon- What makes you think I am not giving you straight honest answers....how can I be any more clear....
I purchase a product out of the country for resale and bring it to the US...the cost to me is what it is, not a phony number made up....I also have costs that have to be added onto my base price...this is called the mark-up that one needs so hopefully a little money is made for time, effort and risk.
The product also has to be competative in the market place it is being sold in...the pricing on the JJ website is not the US pricing.....
Before I stepped up to the plate, you could not purchase a JJ in the US and there was no instructors or support for it. Of course, the pricing has to be competative, I brought it here and people are purchasing it......it took me two years to put together the distributorship in the US...lots of time and money spent.
Everyone has choices...my answers are straight and honest. I also said in my previous post to email me with any questions one might have.
The price today on the US JJ-CCR ready to dive less tanks and valves is $9,000 USD. As I have already said, the pricing will go up and down based on the exchange rate fluctuation from time to time. When people email me asking for the price, I tell them what it is at that time.
I hope this helps you understand a little better...I don't know what else I can do for you at this point except give you a unit for free....I know you would understand that...
Cheers,
Curt
Hi Curt:
Unfortunately these aren't fair or ethical business practices, you can rationalize and try and justify them all you like but it changes nothing, here's what I think happened as well as a few thoughts:
1) We all know your not getting rich in the dive business but thats your choice no one forced you to do anything, now its great you brought the unit to the states but that your choice so you need to deal with the good and bad, MANY EU businesses deal with distributors in the USA and don't play these games with currency trades as you either intensionally or unknowingly walked into but again these are all choices you made.
2) REVO, DIVESOFT, SF2, HEINRICKS WEINKAMP, LIGHT FOR ME, etc., etc., etc., have all faced the same challenges when entering the US market yet none of them play these games with exchange rates, in fact most manufacturers from the EU that deal in the states simply sell Euro denominated assets in Euro because it eliminates the risk that you assumed.
3) For YEARS MANY US companies have been dealing in the EU and they never played these games either even when the exchange worked against them, the dive community never heard of these issues.
4) You have an inventory that isn't worth what you paid for it and you're looking to your consumer base to make up the loss, this just isn't right.
5) You're a smart guy and 2 years ago the dollar looked like a good bet so i think you intensionally played the currency game but things changed and you lost, today you don't want to accept that or more accurately you don't want to assume responsibility for that decision.
6) It is true that there's a shipping cost of about 200 US and an import fee of about 200 US so if you were to charge a 500USD premium even a 700 USD premium and disclosed that as well as have JJ disclose that on the website I think the market will accept that, its not unreasonable to me but when you ask people to pay more then the advertised retail price for an export unit you look like a crook, its really that simple.
7) and NO Curt I would never understand or accept a free unit, that would be wrong also.
Cheers and I hope you do the right thing.
Jon
JONT
New Member
Curt the statement made by you are deceptive and simply OUT OF LINE.
The Prism, HH, Meg, Optima and KISS products are US products and are US Dollar denominated assets and have NOTHING TO DO with the topic of currency exchange risk, and you KNOW this.
You are a very smart guy Curt so its going to be tough to convince anyone that you're some dumb redneck that doesn't know any better.
Superlyte27
New Member
YIKES! LOL, be nice dude. Holy crap, I dread the day I manage to piss you off. Can you imagine that war.
Silentscuba
New Member
Jon- You just don't get it...I am not playing games and I have no inventory left based on the old pricing...the price has been dropped on the JJ to follow the trending exchange rate...
I did purchase the JJ's originally in US Dollars so I could have stable US pricing ......I was not playing any games then or now.
And believe me.....I would never give you a JJ....that would just be wrong !!!! I guess you could not see that was a joke !!!!
I certainly don't follow how you see what I have been doing is unfair or unethical business practices...you have your opinion.
Cheers,
Curt
Silentscuba
New Member
Oh well Jon...I guess we will just have to disagree with each other and that is the right of everyone.
Cheers,
Curt
Superlyte27
New Member
Curt, he uses words like Unfair, Unethical, Dirty Pool -- And they are harsh words, but I think what he wants to know is, why doesn't a JJ cost what it costs across the pond, plus a little extra for shipping/doc stamps, etc. Because ultimately, that's what anyone could do to get one.
Does anyone know how GUE/Halcyon is handling their JJ pricing?
Does anyone know how GUE/Halcyon is handling their JJ pricing?
Silentscuba
New Member
I have explained that clearly in my posts...Retail pricing on products from country to country are certainly different based on the cost to do business with that particular product.....You can go to most any country and purchase what you want in most cases and bring it home here to the US....that is certainly everyones right to do that if it makes sense to them.
Cheers,
Curt
JONT
New Member
Jon- You just don't get it...I am not playing games and I have no inventory left based on the old pricing...the price has been dropped on the JJ to follow the trending exchange rate...
I did purchase the JJ's originally in US Dollars so I could have stable US pricing ......I was not playing any games then or now.
And believe me.....I would never give you a JJ....that would just be wrong !!!! I guess you could not see that was a joke !!!!
I certainly don't follow how you see what I have been doing is unfair or unethical business practices...you have your opinion.
Cheers,
Curt
Curt,
I'm sorry if I seem to harsh unfortunately in my business the things we say to each other are horrendous and we just don't care, I do let this spill over into other areas of my life as Peter has pointed out but here goes:
1) You aren't getting it, purchasing a Euro denominated asset in USD does not give you stable US pricing it does the exact opposite, what it does do is GUARANTEE uncertainty because thats the mistake that got you exactly where you are today.
2) Out of the list of RB's you mentioned only two are relevant to this conversation the REVO and the SF2 both are Euro denominated assets and both sell the product in Euro, the price is what it is and for people buying in a different currency have all of the information they need to make an informed decision, neither one of the two would EVER say what you did and I quote:
"The price today on the US JJ-CCR ready to dive less tanks and valves is $9,000 USD. As I have already said, the pricing will go up and down based on the exchange rate fluctuation from time to time."
What you are telling everyone with the above statement is I'll do what I want, there's no structure and therefore no confidence.
Now to REVO and SF2: neither one of them is selling in USD, they are selling in EURO how the current exchange rate affects a US buyer is incidental, since the people behind both of these units are smart they are letting EVERYONE know "Hey you Yanks can get a good deal today based on exchange rates, maybe its time to buy?"
the SF2 for a US buyer doe represent a better price point the the JJ because of the decisions you make.
The Revo is about even but with the revo you are getting more for you money, 5 cells not 3, 3 independent electronics, scrubber monitor, 2 scrubbers and Titanium, forget about what you think of the unit the point is the resources used to produce the unit cost more.
So both of these units are in fact less expensive.
3) SS why you would mention the company that represent Inpeo/Evo is beyond me but it proves my case. WHO THE HELL IS BUYING THEM HERE? First of all its a GBP denominated asset, strangely enough it had 90+ percent of the market and today they are never mentioned with good reason, I own 2 Inspo's that need thousands to get back up and running safety and thats never going to happen, I talked to a guy in FL who want to buy a Meg from me, he owns an insp. and what are his two biggest complaints: 1) local mark up 2) Cost of service and what are the two biggest complaints about SS???
COST AND COST.
Sounds a little familiar, if you do what SS did you will get the same results, Michael Ovitz said "perception is reality" it would be foolish for you to continue down this path when its so easy to protect yourself by selling in EURO? Now you risk damaging the JJ brand in the US, its fact, it would be VERY easy for you to solve this problem and ensure that it never happens again.
4) You stated "Retail pricing on products from country to country are certainly different based on the cost to do business with that particular product" this is a misleading statement designed to deceive because as it applies to the JJ its simply a LIE.....Pricing for the EU is the same and thats 28 independent countries, pricing is as stated on the JJ website for Asia, AU and everywhere else on the planet EXCEPT North America.
5) The US costs more to transact in: Thats just not true, it cost more to conduct business in several EU countries then it does in the US so your argument here is simply not true.
It seems clear to me that you are the one overhanging for a product with a retail price of EURO$6778.00.
Are you a crook ....of course not but you are being greedy and it could hurt your end game as well as the JJ brand name.
But we can disagree.
Cheers,
Jon
DSix36
Well-Known Member
I think that JONT needs to voice his opinion with his wallet more and his keyboard less. If the JJ price is too high for you then perhaps you should just not buy one and go get something else. When did it become your place to try to dictate the business practices of someone?
Or.......... maybe you are just waiting for Curt to pay you off with goodies and a cheap unit to get you to be quiet. Just an wild idea I came up with.
Flame suit on, so give it hell!
Or.......... maybe you are just waiting for Curt to pay you off with goodies and a cheap unit to get you to be quiet. Just an wild idea I came up with.
Flame suit on, so give it hell!
lof
Member
Or you can buy CCR Liberty. Also priced in USD :devilban::devilban:
http://www.golemgear.com/p-729-ccr-liberty.aspx
http://www.golemgear.com/p-729-ccr-liberty.aspx
Gentlemen, I will encourage everyone to take a deep breath and be civil. We have had almost zero moderation on this board over the past year. I am hopeful that we won't need any in the coming year!
trimixdiver
Member
I'm not encouraging Jon, but I'm not so bored anymore , love a great debate