Trimix course with Jim Wyatt

zirk

zirk

New Member
On Sept 28 and 29 of 2013, I began a rEvo IANTD TRIMIX class with Jim Wyatt.

I expected this IANTD course to follow the outlines set forth by IANTD. I also expected it to be contiguous, with the end result being a trimix certification if I satisfied the course requirements.

I paid a $400.00 down payment for the above mentioned class and have a record of this transaction . The terms of payment were as the instructor requested, based on $200.00 a day.

In the past 6 months I have received 2 days ( 9/28/13 and 9/29/13) of instruction.

Two attempts to schedule the dives occurred, but were cancelled because of 1. instructor illness 2. unfavorable NOAH reports. There have been no further attempts to reschedule that I am aware of.

On Feb 26th, 2014. I asked for the course to be completed by June 6th when I go on vacation, which is 9 months from when the course started. The emails surrounding that event are as follows:


Wednesday, February 26, 2014,
Rick Z wrote:

FYI. Am on spring break March 19-31.
Sent from my iPhone
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Jim Wyatt wrote Wednesday Feb 26, 2014

Booked solid with trimix classes .. unfortunately in the caves.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….............................................

Wednesday Feb 26, 2014

Jim I would like to finish this up. The Ocean has been great, the weather sunny. I feel I have been patient and will continue to wait patiently if you can provide me with an assurance this will be completed before I go on vacation June 6th. That would be approximately 9 + months since we started this trimix course.

If you cannot do this I feel I need to find another instructor who can. If this is the case I would expect the 400.00 I payed you to be refunded.
I would much prefer working with you and getting this complete.
Rick
Sent from my iPhone
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Jim Wyatt wrote: Thursday Feb 27, 2014
The $400 you paid me was for the days we worked on the class. We scheduled dates to finish this and forecasts prevented us from going. I charge for days scheduled, not for completion. I am not able to control the wind and hindsight is 20/20.

I can and will provide you no assurance that we will complete your training at any time. If you feel the need to find another instructor who will provide you with assurances then perhaps you should do that.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

I have called IANTD about this problem on Feb. 29th 2014, and stated my concerns. I have not received any communication from that agency to date even though I have called their office numerous times. On 3/12, I sent an email stating my position and have not received any further communication with the exception of an auto response.

I offer here in writing without personal opinion, my experiences for the consideration of other divers seeking instruction.
 
When the OP scheduled the class for over the fall months I warned him that sea states may preclude us completing this in a timely manner so I suggested he simply pay me a daily rate for the days we did complete rather than paying the entire fee up front as I normally require.

We completed two days & he paid me for those two days. We scheduled times for me to travel five hours to Pompano and get on a boat to complete his dives. I recall NOAA forecasts of 15-20 knots. Knowing that we were going to be doing "live drops" in the Gulfstream accompanied by forecasts of relatively big seas I cancelled these trips. My experience ocean diving in high current and wind is significant and I did not think it prudent to take a student on live boat dives, in high current with accompanying high/wind seas. I relied on my judgement & experience and stand by those decisions.

Of course none of us instructors should ever guarantee completion of any dive course and when I was asked for that guarantee I of course did not give it, never have, never will.

I later got a phone call from a woman identifying herself initially as the OP's lawyer who ended up threatening me with a lawsuit and with bad publicity. Later in the conversation she identified herself as the OP's daughter-in-Law and that he had asked her to contact me. This conversation ended with me not knowing if she was a lawyer, a daughter in law or both.
 
Jim Wyatt said:
When the OP scheduled the class for over the fall months I warned him that sea states may preclude us completing this in a timely manner so I suggested he simply pay me a daily rate for the days we did complete rather than paying the entire fee up front as I normally require.

We completed two days & he paid me for those two days. We scheduled times for me to travel five hours to Pompano and get on a boat to complete his dives. I recall NOAA forecasts of 15-20 knots. Knowing that we were going to be doing "live drops" in the Gulfstream accompanied by forecasts of relatively big seas I cancelled these trips. My experience ocean diving in high current and wind is significant and I did not think it prudent to take a student on live boat dives, in high current with accompanying high/wind seas. I relied on my judgement & experience and stand by those decisions.

Of course none of us instructors should ever guarantee completion of any dive course and when I was asked for that guarantee I of course did not give it, never have, never will.

I later got a phone call from a woman identifying herself initially as the OP's lawyer who ended up threatening me with a lawsuit and with bad publicity. Later in the conversation she identified herself as the OP's daughter-in-Law and that he had asked her to contact me. This conversation ended with me not knowing if she was a lawyer, a daughter in law or both.
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seems to me he has got what he paid for ....at your per deim ( spelling ? ) i never guarantee certification i even get the students to sign a document to that effect '' that paying fees doesn't constitute certification '' sometimes students expect us to be at their beckon call and we can control weather , and again why i tell them if they have a time crunch come back when you are free.................
 
So you went to the training agency and posted private emails because the instructor was sick and you got blown out, after the instructor warned you of that exact issue, with three months to go before your deadline? Makes sense. :rolleyes:
 
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Jim, seriously, when are you going to start controlling the weather? This I'm not a god and can't control the earth crap is getting out of hand. If you could just follow suit with all the rest of the superheroes and master the talent of weather control that would be great.

Thanks again,
Garth


Garth
 
I see both sides at fault. The OP cleared stated his desire to get the class done by a certain date (not pass, just completed) yet hasnt made a concerted effort to schedule completion dates that work with the instructor.. Jim, you are sort of at fault, because he stated his desire, and apparently you've made no effort either to contact him to complete the class within your schedule. At least from what I see in this very limited post.
 
Jeff Pack said:
The OP cleared stated his desire to get the class done by a certain date (not pass, just completed) yet hasnt made a concerted effort to schedule completion dates that work with the instructor..

On Tuesday, January 21, 2014, Rick Z wrote:
Jim,
Am wondering when you will be able to finish my trimix class. As I look at you schedule I see very little wiggle room. There have been some great flat weekends. Just had 3 wonderful days of flat seas and great viz.

Rick Z

On January 21,2014 Jim Wrote:

As soon as my schedule clears & as soon as the wind calms down.
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Well Jim apperently this is your bad publicity. I'm not sure who is really to blame but my feeling is that airing it on a public forum without a little more effort to work it out is bad form....but that is just me.
 
I happen to know and like both Rick and Jim. I have absolutely no desire to pick sides or judge. I do, however, think that airing things in public can be beneficial for other forum members to gain a better understanding of the issues at hand.

Rick may not be getting satisfaction via private channels and Jim would seem to be at fault if he did not have the balls to answer when called out publicly.

On another forum, the owner is answering for a specific manufacturer about an allegation. This makes me feel that the manufacturer is indeed at fault and is too embarrassed to respond to the claims. I may be completely off track, but that is the way it comes across to me. Right or wrong, the message needs to be delivered and answered.
 
I dont have much experience in the scuba world, so you take this with a grain of salt. But as a student, I've never paid a per diem rate for any class I've taken. I've paid for a class with an instructor. That class means i get so many days of diving, and so many days of classroom with said instructor. In fact, I'm just taking my IANTD CCR trimix class right now. And I paid for the class. If my instructor had to cancel a dive day, I'd expect to be at the top of the list on a reschedule. First come and all that. That would be my expectation and i consider it a reasonable one. I would also expect my instructor to be abit proactive in providing alternatives to the missing dive days that worked with both of our schedules..
 
Jim Wyatt said:
Of course none of us instructors should ever guarantee completion of any dive course and when I was asked for that guarantee I of course did not give it, never have, never will.
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Wow, that's impressive! I was considering Jim for a course, but know for sure that I will not do a course with him after reading this thread :)

Taking the money for days given, and not being willing to help out the guy to complete his course? Had I gotten a answer like that; I paid for the days done, and that is that because it was scheduled I would be very upset! All instructors I have ever worked with would take a small fee for securing the days scheduled, but if the course could not be completed they would all be very helpful towards me to try and work something out. Either give the money back, at least most of it, reschedule, try to organize differently or something. And the instructor might even loose a few bucks on that particular deal, but having me super happy to spread the word might be worth it. Having me get pissed and tell everyone about the bad experience would be much worse.

I have never met an instructor who can't guarantee completion of a course! Not guaranteeing a certification is something else and that is understandable, but not being willing to guarantee completion of the course? Why would _anybody_ start a course on those terms? If you sell a course, you do the whole course, not sell the course in bits day by day and give up half way through. I have never heard of a course that is x amount of money per day, all courses I have taken had a price for the course, the _whole/completed_ course (certification costs to the agency should one pass can be additional). Will the student get credit for the days done if he chooses to switch instructor? In a full cave class this could work to some degree, with doing the intro to cave, cavern and so on; so if either one jumps ship at least a syllabus has been completed and if the skills were up to it a certification to the level reached could be issued. But if it is not a built up course like that the money is lost.
 
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I was actually looking forward to making the dives with Rick and had all intentions of completing his course once I felt it was safe for me to do so. Raptor--I simply told Rick I would not guarantee he would finish the course, finish meaning complete/graduate/earn a certification.

Don Six stated that it would seem I had no balls if I did not answer. My friend Paul Raymeakers contacted me via e-mail informing me of the original posting. Paul asked me to help clear the air and I tried to do just that.

After being threatened with a lawsuit and with bad publicity by Rick's lawyer/daughter-in-law my feeling is that Rick & I would never make a good instructor/student team again. Because of that I decline to teach him ever again.

I offered to provide Rick with a referral for the time he has spent as a student with me so that perhaps another instructor would agree to instruct him.

Jeff Pack - For many years, decades I have given students the option of paying a daily rate rather than the full course fee at once for a variety of reasons. In Rick's case as I explained both here and to him it was because we were scheduling the classes during the time frame where the wind blows and charters get blown out.

Rick would have really been incensed had he paid my motel room in Pompano and my expenses for travel and then we were unable to dive. I wanted to avoid him having to do that.

No good deed goes unpunished.
 
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Jim Wyatt said:
Raptor--I simply told Rick I would not guarantee he would finish the course, finish meaning complete/graduate/earn a certification.
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Which of course is reasonable and the way it should be. I thought that was maybe what you actually meant, but together with the day by day payment schedule it came across differently. I like the post above better than the first one :)

Differences can be difficult to solve, and I will guess that most of your students by far are happy.
 
Raptor^ said:
Wow, that's impressive! I was considering Jim for a course, but know for sure that I will not do a course with him after reading this thread :)

Taking the money for days given, and not being willing to help out the guy to complete his course? Had I gotten a answer like that; I paid for the days done, and that is that because it was scheduled I would be very upset! All instructors I have ever worked with would take a small fee for securing the days scheduled, but if the course could not be completed they would all be very helpful towards me to try and work something out. Either give the money back, at least most of it, reschedule, try to organize differently or something. And the instructor might even loose a few bucks on that particular deal, but having me super happy to spread the word might be worth it. Having me get pissed and tell everyone about the bad experience would be much worse.

I have never met an instructor who can't guarantee completion of a course! Not guaranteeing a certification is something else and that is understandable, but not being willing to guarantee completion of the course? Why would _anybody_ start a course on those terms? If you sell a course, you do the whole course, not sell the course in bits day by day and give up half way through. I have never heard of a course that is x amount of money per day, all courses I have taken had a price for the course, the _whole/completed_ course (certification costs to the agency should one pass can be additional). Will the student get credit for the days done if he chooses to switch instructor? In a full cave class this could work to some degree, with doing the intro to cave, cavern and so on; so if either one jumps ship at least a syllabus has been completed and if the skills were up to it a certification to the level reached could be issued. But if it is not a built up course like that the money is lost.
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I read this post and it makes me wonder, what is your experience level? I can tell you that I CANNOT guarantee the completion of a course. You might be a complete idiot. If you are unsafe, drunk, high, or too stupid to live, or insubordinate, we won't be able to finish class. If the caves blow out for months at a time, like what happened a few years ago. I can't guarantee a class. If the ocean is crap for an entire year, which is what happened back in 1996 on me (the reason I became a cave diver) I can't guarantee a class. Dude, there's literally a dozen reasons why we can't guarantee a class. Fortunately, most of these reasons are rare.

Secondly, under most circumstance, you pay me up front to hold a slot for your class. Usually a deposit of 10-25%. If you miss the class, the deposit is forfeited. If I miss the date (which has never happened), we will reschedule it for a time when it's convenient for both of us.

It sounds to me like Jim knew this was going to be hit and miss, and rather than take all of his money up front (knowing there wasn't a possibility of finishing the class in one shot) he only took the two days that the student was going to be here. When he came back, you'd pay again. Personally, I think that was incredibly generous. I've never done it. You sign up for class, on first day you pay me the full amount. If for any reason we need to cancel or reschedule, I'm keeping the full amount. Period. Kudos to Jim for trying to help the student out. I bet Jim never does it again. My montra for last year was, "no good deed goes unpunished". Might be a good one for this year too.

I can tell you that several times over the years I've had people come from out of state or out of country. Weeks before they got here I warned them they may not want to come because of weather or cave conditions. Just a year or two ago, every single cave in the High Springs area (including Ginnie) was blown out and not usuable. The students insisted on risking it. They got here and couldn't dive. Dude, Shiit happens. We do our best to plan for it. Sometimes those plans are convenient, sometimes they are not convenient. I can tell you I don't do 25% of the business Jim Wyatt does for diving and I know how hard it is to get my schedule to line up. Jim books sometimes a year in advance. What's he supposed to do, screw up someone else's vacation because the Ocean was crap on your day off? That's not realistic. We do our best to fix what's broke. Sometimes it's an easy fix. Sometimes it's not. Deal with it or take up Stamp Collecting. It's a whole lot more predictable and really geared toward the more feminine crowd.



-Edit-
LOL, I just finished reading the thread. It's funny as hell that Jim also said, "no good deed goes unpunished".
 
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Jim wrote:
***8220;Raptor--I simply told Rick I would not guarantee he would finish the course, finish meaning complete/graduate/earn a certification.***8221;

Jim also wrote:
***8220;We completed two days & he paid me for those two days.***8221;

If we completed 2 days of training without a certification it stands to reason that "completing the course" should be used in the same context Jim used above. I find it a bit insulting that Jim would think I would just expect a card to be handed over without actually passing the course.



Jim Wrote:
***8220;Rick would have really been incensed had he paid my motel room in Pompano and my expenses for travel and then we were unable to dive. I wanted to avoid him having to do that.***8221;

The above quote is supposition. When asked for $400.00 I paid without a word. I work on a dive boat part time (which we could have used for some if not all of the of the dives) and therefore am familiar with the pit-falls. The possibility of the boat not going out is always present. I would have happily paid Jim***8217;s expences in any in all cases.

Jim wrote:
***8220; I later got a phone call from a woman identifying herself initially as the OP's lawyer who ended up threatening me with a lawsuit and with bad publicity. Later in the conversation she identified herself as the OP's daughter-in-Law and that he had asked her to contact me. This conversation ended with me not knowing if she was a lawyer, a daughter in law or both. ***8220;

My daughter-in-law is a partner in a large law firm. I contacted her after receiving Jim***8217;s email in an attempt to settle this dispute and to come to an agreeable solution. Jim refused to negoiate in any way and so she made him aware of our intended course of action which is now in inpart being implemented.

To Jim,
Initially I asked you to refund all of my $400.00 back to me. I am not unreasonable and I for one do not enjoy this, but I will push back when pushed. I propose we settle this and meet in the middle. You keep $200.00 and I am refunded $200.00. We call it a problem solved and we respectfully walk away. Whay say you?
Rick Z.
 
Did you not get 2 days worth of instruction at $200 per day? I'm not sure where you are due anything. The best you could hope for is A. Jim to be gracious and complete your class at a schedule that is good for BOTH of you. OR B. Jim to refer you to another instructor who, knowing Jim's thoroughness, will complete your class based on Jim's recommendations that you did in fact succeed in your studies the two days you spent with him.

I'd be willing to bet $400 that this/your approach will NEVER result in Jim giving you back your money. That ship sailed shortly after you started posting your nonsense.
 
agreed, honestly getting a lawyer involved was a douche move. You paid for 2 days, you got 2 days. All you havent received is carry on instruction. There's no damages involved. Jim has no "legal" obligation to do anythign past the 2 days he was paid for, and I'm surprised anyone with a legal background would tell you otherwise. While I still find that Jim shirked his responsibility in making an effort to get your class completed, you shot yourslef in the ass getting legal.. What instructor now is going to take you?
 
Jeff Pack said:
agreed, honestly getting a lawyer involved was a douche move. You paid for 2 days, you got 2 days. All you havent received is carry on instruction. There's no damages involved. Jim has no "legal" obligation to do anythign past the 2 days he was paid for, and I'm surprised anyone with a legal background would tell you otherwise. While I still find that Jim shirked his responsibility in making an effort to get your class completed, you shot yourslef in the ass getting legal.. What instructor now is going to take you?
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That really is the big issue. The OP has just shown the tech instructors that he is sue happy. I for one would avoid that like a bad cold. Good luck in your technical advancement now.
 
Law suit threats and worldwide forum denunciation! Nice one!

Well, to avoid potentially being embroiled in a similar campaign of spiteful vindictiveness should your aspirations not be realised to your satisfaction, if I was a US based CCR Instructor I would now avoid you like the plague. Postings such as this over a minor commercial grievance is inextricably dragging this forum down - shame as CCR X was borne of more noble aspirations. And no I don't know Jim Wyatt, nor have ever met him.
 
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