speciality courses

[Mike Ferguson]

Haven't had any deep, meaningful and controversial discussions for a while so here's a starter.

Over the past ten years or so there seems to be an ever increasing trend for competing training agencies to introduce more and more courses for this, that, or the other (think solo diving course, drysuit course, sidemount course, recreational trimix, normoxic trimix, trimix, advanced trimix, explorer trimix, expedition trimix, etc). With PADI now sniffing the scent of cash to be made from the tech sphere this can only increase in pace and breadth. There also appears to be a trend amongst some of the traditional agencies to seperate 'technical' training from 'diver' training and insist on a whole load of additional requirements (ie additional tech instructor training courses) before allowing existing highly experienced instructors that are already undertaking more adventurous dives themselves to teach other divers these skills.

Is this a case of training agencies trying to ensure that any divers trained by them to undertake these dives have been trained to the very highest standard in order to make this type of diving as safe as possible?

Or is this a case of self styled dive guru's and training agencies trying to somehow create an aura of mystery about more adventurous diving techniques and bring out ever more courses to ensure that they continue to have a product to sell?

Whichever reason it is, it seems to be presenting ever more hurdles to people who have been quietly diving for years without making a fuss. Once upon a time I could go and buy O2 and Helium and mix up my own devil gas and nobody seemed particularly concerned. Now because there is a gas blending course to do people want to see a gas blending cert before selling you gas. Once you could wander off and say hey I pushed a little further and dived this wreck in 75m or whatever and people would ask you to tell them how you did it without dying. Now there is a 100m trimix cert people tut if you dive to 65M without one and call you reckless for 'attempting' dives outside of certification.

What do you guys think? Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Is this a sign of a maturing sport / industry? Or is it a case of a sport / industry living in a climate of fear brought about by training agencies with an eye to selling more courses?

At this point I'll confess that last year I finally gave in and did a mod 2 course so I could continue to buy trimix without some spotty youth asking if I was trimix certified before filling my cylinders if I was away from home. I had got to feel like a grandfather being asked for proof of age by the youth on the supermarket checkout before being allowed to buy some beer. It was fun doing the dives and finding all the dodgy maths and mistakes in the course notes but I can't recall learning anything new that I hadn't already learned from reading Sheck Exley's and Bret Gilliams books nearly 20 years ago.

 

[Robert]

Hi Mike,

WARNING - post contains cynicism, further flogging of dead horses etc

It's training agencies (or instructors, or both) trying to keep selling more courses to the same people, especially since the number of people wanting to get into this sort of activity seems to be declining.

Unfortunately, it seems to work for cultural? generational? reasons. Over here at least, the thought process of most of the younger people seems to be that they want everything taught to them by an instructor. Learning something by themselves just dosen't seem to appeal to them for some reason - I taught myself to sidemount prior to my cavern course, for instance, and this seemed to raise a few eyebrows locally.

The idea that non-agency groups (ie the navy, SPUMS etc) might have some good ideas is not mentioned in training. Basically, the idea that the only place to get training/information is an instructor appears to have become very entrenched.

The number of levels of trimix training required is out of control - personally I've got one (CC hypoxic) and don't see any need to do any others. I've never particularly understood the logic behind breaking this down - I'd imagine that the expedition trimix course involves paying a couple of grand to an instructor to tell you to take air breaks and watch you mess around with an extra stage bottle until you get the hang of it. Personally, my approach would be to get the information from Rubicon (free, and not dumbed down by a training agency) and do the drills with stages at the local training site. I predate the recreational trimix etc levels (except normoxic, which was available but which very few people did at the time), however I'd imagine that they will be popular with any of the newer people who get that far.

As far as feeling like an old fart, I agree. In my case, I spent most of the late 90s being notorious for diving solo :vader: . If I want to do this now, I'm probably going to need to get myself a ticket eventually (along with OC trimix, blending etc). I'm half thinking of opening an agency, writing up a few certs for myself (all the above, trimix with no depth limit etc) then shutting it down. The trick would be to get it looking professional enough that it would be accepted.

Good topic, however,

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Creepi]

It was fun doing the dives and finding all the dodgy maths and mistakes in the course notes

Yup, looking for the always present mistakes in the manuals is always fun. Some of the agency react a little badly when the mistakes are pointed out.

My current favourite is in a CCR Mod 1 manual they get you to work out gas consumption one way for one scenario and then the second scenario uses a different gas consumption logic. No problem, until the manual then states how it has compared the scenarios and proved one is better than the another!

They are also very good at making a simple equation look harder than it is, maybe to justify the "technical" label

 

[lizardland]

Just as worrying as the creeping range of courses to certify you to do the mundane and the obvious is the changing attitude of divers that these courses, and instructor approval, is actually necessary. Baa... baa... baa...

Dive instruction has always been a self-fuelling industry. I somehow can't see climbers tolerating training for every new bit of kit or kayakers signing up for solo courses.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[liztribe]

It really depends on the student and his/her natural ability in the water. The onus is also on the instructor to be honest with the student as to whether or not the student needs the course. Take PADI's deep diver course for example. I know a bunch of divers who regularly venture past 60ft without so much as an advanced open water certification. Most of these guys I'd feel like a thief taking their money to teach them a deep diver course as they have more than enough experience and know how to be there. Others, while they may be very good divers, need the confidence that comes with doing a formal course, others need the basic fundamentals of safe diving hammered into them a bit more. Unfortunately shops will always push to sell mundane course as long as there are students willing to pay for them rather than suggesting a course that the student will actually benefit from and be challenged by, thereby presenting a knew avenue for the student to venture down with his/her diving, whether it be photography, wreck diving, tech diving or working towards becoming a dive professional. Another reason you see an influx of jokes of specialty courses is piss poor initial instruction as a result of green instructors willing to work for sweat shop wages where the approach quickly becomes quantity over quality. I have yet to meet a dive shop owner who cares enough about the quality of training their shop provides to pay an experienced instructor a fair wage to produce good divers at an open water level.

Bottom line is, nothing beats experience and time in the water. A good instructor will give a student the motivation, knowledge and techniques necessary to acquire such experience.

 

[Clare]

I've sat in on classes I haven't needed and learned loads.

I've taken classes and learned little.

I've had people on classes and had to dig really deep to find something within standards to teach them as they have presented so well.

I've had people with very high certification in classes who were a danger to themselves and shouldn't have the cards they do.

You don't know what you don't know. When you move into a 'specialty' the arrogance of an experienced diver MAY make them too confident and unaware of potential pitfalls. That's why we have so many dead OW instructors in caves. cave is just another specialty after all.

My view is most divers need additional training for first deco qualification, significant depth, caves, scooters and RBs. However this short list requires that they had damn good training at the outset and have good core skills. Sadly this is not always the case.

 

[jturner]

Unfortunately shops will always push to sell mundane course as long as there are students willing to pay for them rather than suggesting a course that the student will actually benefit from and be challenged by, thereby presenting a knew avenue for the student to venture down with his/her diving, whether it be photography, wreck diving, tech diving or working towards becoming a dive professional.

Perhaps the above is better phrased as "Many shops..." or "Some shops..." as I know for a fact that my LDS does not work the way you describe above! Hopefully, we are not the only ones!

I have yet to meet a dive shop owner who cares enough about the quality of training their shop provides to pay an experienced instructor a fair wage to produce good divers at an open water level.

Why would paying someone make a difference and more importantly, if only experienced instructors should be teaching, how do the rest of us become experienced instructors when we cannot teach?!! If you mean experienced as in they have spent time in the water under many different conditions then I agree. But teaching experience was something I didn't have before I became an instructor so I had to learn by team-teaching with one of the more senior instructors.

Bottom line is, nothing beats experience and time in the water. A good instructor will give a student the motivation, knowledge and techniques necessary to acquire such experience.

+1!!! :agree:

 

[liztribe]

Perhaps the above is better phrased as "Many shops..." or "Some shops..." as I know for a fact that my LDS does not work the way you describe above! Hopefully, we are not the only ones!

Fair enough. I am generalizing.

Why would paying someone make a difference and more importantly, if only experienced instructors should be teaching, how do the rest of us become experienced instructors when we cannot teach?!! If you mean experienced as in they have spent time in the water under many different conditions then I agree. But teaching experience was something I didn't have before I became an instructor so I had to learn by team-teaching with one of the more senior instructors.

Where I live, the dive industry is saturated with new instructors willing to work for sweat shop wages to earn experience, nothing wrong with that. You're correct, you have to start somewhere, I don't disagree with that but shops should support a mentor-ship program where the new instructor teaches under the guidance of an experienced instructor. Everyone comes out of their recreational IDC green and it takes practice and experience to develop a system. But shops that pay their instructors less than minimum wage are not going to pay two instructors to teach a course.

Shops also need to enforce quality instruction and make sure that the students are happy with the instruction that they receive. I teach for a shop here on an as needed basis whenever they are short on staff instructors. I don't think I do anything overly extraordinary, I follow standards, make sure my students learn something, are safe and have fun. Ideally, when these students go to a different instructor within that shop, they should receive the same quality of instruction. Sure, some people prefer one teaching style over another but (and I'm not trying to toot my own horn, I'm using this as an example) 9/10 of the students I teach who take a course from one of the on staff instructors end up coming back to me afterwards and say the quality of teaching was terrible. To me this is not acceptable. Often, the complaints are lack of professionalism, the instructor rushed through things, the instructor was not focused, the instructor did not teach them anything that they didn't read in the manual. While instructors might get paid next to nothing, shops certainly charge a pretty penny for their courses and when you're paying that amount of money, you expect a certain level of service. This is a definite disconnect, when you go to a 5 star restaurant and pay $100+ for a meal, it's not being prepared by a minimum wage Tim Hortons/McDonalds employee, it's being prepared by someone who invested a lot of time, money and training to be able to prepare a meal to that level and their wages are compensated accordingly. Paying more based on experience, and/or quality of teaching is motivation and recognition for the polish, time and effort instructors should strive for in their instruction. You can't charge five star meal prices and pay someone minimum wage to prepare a quality meal.

 

[Robert]

My view is most divers need additional training for first deco qualification, significant depth, caves, scooters and RBs. However this short list requires that they had damn good training at the outset and have good core skills. Sadly this is not always the case.

I'd agree with this.

To be honest, if I was to set up an agency I'd have fewer levels than most current setups, but longer/more intense courses at each level

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Dave Sutton]

"if only experienced instructors should be teaching, how do the rest of us become experienced instructors when we cannot teach?!!"


First you become an experienced diver... you do that by diving.

Experience should not be gained *teaching*. Sadly, that is not the paradigm.


In the old days there was one course: Diver. You learned to perfect your skills on the boat and over boxes of pizza on Friday night at your mates house while packing gear. You could not buy your way into knowlage... you earned your way into being trusted by the experienced guys, who would then teach you. No amount of money would do.

I remember when Tom Mount started IANTD, and we, the "old timers" who had literally invented the sport of technical diving all rolled our eyes and knew that before long there would be a course for everything, and that the end of the apprentice system was going to be at hand. I cannot say that anyone was pleased. The first "instructor" teaching "technical diving" in my area was a guy who had been laughed off of the boat for being a buffoon. He perfected his "art" in the quarry... teaching students who belonged in the quarry.

<insert grumpy comment here>


Oh well.



Dave


.

 

[Mike Ferguson]

I feel that there is a no doubt that training avoids people repeating the mistakes of others who learned the hard way. I just question the bite sized modular training complete with certificate for every individual aspect that people seem to require nowadays (started by PADI as a way of continuing to take money of people after initial training and adopted as a model by other agencies to encourage 'dive professionals' to teach their systems), and the sometimes explicit condemnation of others who consider this a right scam. If people want to do all these courses to soak up pearls of wisdom from the feet of some dive guru or other that's fine and is a good way to shorten the process of acquiring knowledge in a short space of time. The unfortunate by product that doesn't sit so well with me, is the production of meaningless certificates that slowly and insidiously become 'the standard required to undertake these dives'

When I was a lad learning to dive in the UK there was BSAC third class diver (able to look after yourself in the water), BSAC second class diver (able to organise diving activities and run expeditions) and BSAC first class diver (never quite worked that one out, I think it meant you liked collecting badges). That was it. Sounded a bit demeaning if you weren't a first class diver but you knew where you stood in the ranks. All sub sets of skills were taught by more experienced members of your club. Once you effectively passed what amounted to a peer review you were awarded the certificate and started training for the next level. As a system it seemed to work OK to me and turned out some very good, very knowledgeable, self reliant divers with the minimum of certs being issued. Once you knew how to dive properly you could start learning how to effectively pass that knowledge on to others and become an instructor. Again three levels, club instructor (confined water), advanced instructor (anything you could do yourself) and national instructor (instructor training) rather then the multitudinous instructor levels I see now in various agencies (which seems to be designed to continue to take money off wannabe gurus and pass it up the tree).

Surely there is no need to offer more than one trimix rebreather diver cert and if you have been assessed as a competent trimix rebreather diver you should have the requisite knowledge and in water ability to dive any mix in a drysuit or wetsuit, with a buddy or on your own, by day or by night, with your kit configured in the way that suits you best, and be able to assess the risks, stay alive and get back out on your own without taking another half dozen 'speciality courses' and being told how you must configure your kit in a way that works fine in a Florida cave but not so well in a raging current when wearing thick underclothes to stay warm, or undertaking a three day crossover course because the switch to turn on your new unit is a different colour than the one on your old unit.

also insert additional grumpy old man comments as required.

mike

 

[jturner]

"if only experienced instructors should be teaching, how do the rest of us become experienced instructors when we cannot teach?!!"


First you become an experienced diver... you do that by diving.

100% agreement with this bit! No substitute for it IMHO.

Experience should not be gained *teaching*

Not so sure about this part though...? I have been lucky enough over the years to dive a varied range of environments and conditions; I haven't trained others in many different environments, so I need more teaching experience IMO ie I am a relatively inexperienced instructor. My point was that based on my interpretation of the original quote, I should therefore not be teaching?! IMHO, the 2nd above quote should read "Experience should be gained prior to teaching. Experience in teaching should be gained *teaching*" perhaps?

 

[liztribe]

100% agreement with this bit! No substitute for it IMHO.



Not so sure about this part though...? I have been lucky enough over the years to dive a varied range of environments and conditions; I haven't trained others in many different environments, so I need more teaching experience IMO ie I am a relatively inexperienced instructor. My point was that based on my interpretation of the original quote, I should therefore not be teaching?! IMHO, the 2nd above quote should read "Experience should be gained prior to teaching. Experience in teaching should be gained *teaching*" perhaps?

One should also be an experienced DIVER prior to teaching. In the condition and environment in which you are teaching. Zero to hero programs are severely flawed. Furthermore, experienced instructors should always continue to learn, I learn something from every diver I meet, even if it's what not to do

 

[Dave Sutton]

^^^ that pretty much sums it up.



IMHO, the 2nd above quote should read "Experience should be gained prior to teaching. Experience in teaching should be gained *teaching*" perhaps?


That is what I tried to say. Thanks for stating it better.


Dave

.

 

[WFO]

It's quite depressing for me as a newbie to this and not one of you wise old wizard types to think that you have to spend thousands on thousands to buy your way into a sport.

I've got the wherewithal and capability to get myself into it, sod off and leave me be!

Luckily my experience so far is that most skippers don't care much about cert cards etc. If any get nit picky about checking you have a drysuit card when diving in the UK I hope they get generally boycotted.

Whether that same attitude extends to home brewed CCRs I am yet to find out. We shall see.

 

[Michael Thornton]

I have hesitated posting in this thread because I am a Technical Diving Instructor who makes his money teaching. First I want to start by saying I am not posting this to try and get any of you to sign up for my classes. I luckily have enough students to only accept the ones who really have a desire to take the class. I wont teach anybody who just wants a card.
I think there are some classes that are not always necessary, but I also think the agencies for the most part have done a pretty good job of making those classes specialties (meaning not required to take). But they exist for someone who wants some more formal training on that specific subject.
Now there will be some who argue that these certs are required by different dive sites. That is more of a liability issue by who ever owns the site. So we have selfish law suits and insurance companies to blame for that.

For example I started diving rebreathers and was also a cave diver so I went cave diving on my rebreather. Ginnie springs then decided to enforce cavers who wanted to dive a rebreather have a "CCR Cave Cert" I thought thats just stupid.
I then took my CCR cave class and eventually got my CCR Cave instructor and was blown away with how much I learned. I feel like I was safely conducting cave dives on my rebreather but once I took the CCR Cave I learned a ton and was so happy I took it. I know there will be many who refuse to see the need of such a class and would consider it a specialty. However I truly believe I am a safer more knowledgeable cave diver and instructor for having taken a class specifically about CCRs and cave diving.

I think people who do not want to take these specialties should choose not to and people who want to learn more should elect to. It should be their choice. But the classes do have merit to those who desire the knowledge and skills.

 

[Mike Ferguson]

I think people who do not want to take these specialties should choose not to and people who want to learn more should elect to. It should be their choice. But the classes do have merit to those who desire the knowledge and skills.

Absolutely agree with what you are saying about choice (however there are other ways to gain knowledge and skills as well as taking courses, it just takes a little longer) and people learning new skills on courses, I just wonder where all these courses and certs are leading to.

I qualified as a cmas 3 star instructor over 20 years ago and worked as a full time instructor for a couple of years (I know people don't become instructors to get rich). However despite this, and having done well in excess of a thousand dives in a drysuit, I apparently now can't hire a drysuit if I put a hole in mine at certain dive sites because I haven't done a drysuit familiarisation course. Apparently I also can't teach acellerated decompression with nitrox without paying to take another course to certify me as a 'technical' instructor or teach someone to use the type of rebreather I have exclusively dived for over 4 years without doing another course.

This effectively starts to remove the option for people to choose whether or not to take these courses and fundamentally changes the nature of the sport and presents additional barriers for entry into the sport and personal progression.

When I started diving there were lots of guys in their teens and early twenties in most dive clubs from all walks of life, I now look around the average club or charter boat and all I see are middle aged middle managers and doctors and lawyers. In the rush to increase the number of courses on offer, the training agencies seem to have raised obstacles to entry to the sport and progression that just didn't exist before and I wonder if this is deterring the next generation.

 

[Michael Thornton]

Absolutely agree with what you are saying about choice (however there are other ways to gain knowledge and skills as well as taking courses, it just takes a little longer) and people learning new skills on courses, I just wonder where all these courses and certs are leading to.

I qualified as a cmas 3 star instructor over 20 years ago and worked as a full time instructor for a couple of years (I know people don't become instructors to get rich). However despite this, and having done well in excess of a thousand dives in a drysuit, I apparently now can't hire a drysuit if I put a hole in mine at certain dive sites because I haven't done a drysuit familiarisation course. Apparently I also can't teach acellerated decompression with nitrox without paying to take another course to certify me as a 'technical' instructor or teach someone to use the type of rebreather I have exclusively dived for over 4 years without doing another course.

This effectively starts to remove the option for people to choose whether or not to take these courses and fundamentally changes the nature of the sport and presents additional barriers for entry into the sport and personal progression.

When I started diving there were lots of guys in their teens and early twenties in most dive clubs from all walks of life, I now look around the average club or charter boat and all I see are middle aged middle managers and doctors and lawyers. In the rush to increase the number of courses on offer, the training agencies seem to have raised obstacles to entry to the sport and progression that just didn't exist before and I wonder if this is deterring the next generation.

I feel your pain with having to qualify yourself as a drysuit instructor. In a perfect world there would be an easy way to test everyone and give them the qualifications they deserve. And in a perfect world this would be inexpensive.

I also agree with you about we are losing the next generation. As a 24 year old CCR instructor I felt pretty young at RF3.

I can see both sides of the specialty dilemma. For instance I learned SM years before they were offering formal classes on it and before dive rite released the nomad. I never took a SM class from an agency and was able to learn enough (from other sources) to be able to now teach it. But it took me 5 plus years to learn what my students can learn in a day and half. If I had spent more time studying etc then it wouldn't have taken me so long but it's nice that the specialty has it all organized. Sometimes in a class I learn something I wouldn't of even known how to look up. And more than academic is the in water portion.
I will still happily sell SM equipment to someone with only OW training. But I always try to talk them into a class.

But then to contradict myself: I took the prism 2 instructor crossover earlier this year. The unit is so easy to use (compared to some others i have used) I would have felt comfortable teaching the day after my user course but I had to complete my hours etc to meet standards to become an instructor. I think there are certain units that certain people could be good instructors on with less than the required hours. But then again there are other people who shouldn't be teaching after 1,000s of hours. The training agencies have to design their classes and standards for what is best for the majority. Then it's up to the instructors or ITs to decide whether their student is ready.
Sometimes I find it annoying the loops I have to jump through to be able to teach. But I would be scared to see the quality of instructors if it was any less difficult. (Not that all instructors would be bad but there would be more bad instructors out there).

Maybe in the future there will be ways for instructors to qualify via Skype or something to pass of skills that are well within their experience. So someone like you doesn't have to take a PADI drysuit specialty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[packeteer]

Welcome to the 21st century!!!

this is NOT a dive specific thing, it is a culture / society thing!

look at any other industry. Lots of useless certs/qualifications.

 

[kwinter]

PADI is probably developing a "Dive Forum Posting Protocol" specialty as we speak. :cuckoo: