The upside down smb / double ender (in the absence of lift bag), can be attached to an anchor and partially filled (to assist recovery when shotline is lifted clear when everyone is back on boat, etc). Having this upside down means you can burp the bag if needed to reduce line tension after tie-ing in...
Reels
- Thread starter Tiptopperoo
- Start date
The upside down smb / double ender (in the absence of lift bag), can be attached to an anchor and partially filled (to assist recovery when shotline is lifted clear when everyone is back on boat, etc). Having this upside down means you can burp the bag if needed to reduce line tension after tie-ing in...
Mike Ferguson
WTF is that?
Only seen a CO2 one used once but from that experience I do know that if you let off a small CO2 cylinder into a DSMB off fair head in 70m it goes nowhere, a second CO2 cartridge in the same bag gave it just enough buoyancy to go sideways in the tide rather than up. I really struggled not to flood my mask as Gar's new fancy shot off into the dark and we watched his reel rapidly empty of line.
From what I've seen the 0.1L crack bottle works better.
mike
DSix36
Well-Known Member
Tiptopperoo
CCRx Supporter
I can see the merit of a crack bottle, but they seem like adding more gear to solve a skill problem, rather than just having a technique that works.
Now before I get shot. On big dives, I can see how a crack bottle solves a number of problems. However I would prefer to be able to deploy my bag, using a finger spool or reel. I think the team approach is smart when deploying from depth, and if its a loss of buoyancy, then why would you need the reel!?! (I didn't think that through.
Dave
Now before I get shot. On big dives, I can see how a crack bottle solves a number of problems. However I would prefer to be able to deploy my bag, using a finger spool or reel. I think the team approach is smart when deploying from depth, and if its a loss of buoyancy, then why would you need the reel!?! (I didn't think that through.
Dave
dmainou
New Member
The reason to use the reel rather than the spool is because you want to shoot the bag close to where the boat will be and thus maximising the chances of being found quickly.
Using the spool means floating with the current for some time.
Now since you are at the bottom and you are on a ccr then there is no huge rush. Use the floor to your advantage. Clip the smb, lose the nut, drop the reel to the floor, take your time and deal with the bag.
Sorry, it's a lot simpler than the dir perfect process but works a charm.
D
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
Using the spool means floating with the current for some time.
Now since you are at the bottom and you are on a ccr then there is no huge rush. Use the floor to your advantage. Clip the smb, lose the nut, drop the reel to the floor, take your time and deal with the bag.
Sorry, it's a lot simpler than the dir perfect process but works a charm.
D
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
Dave Sutton
Banned
^^^ what he said.
It's all easy until it's done in the dark, in a current, in five foot vis.
Finger spools are for swimming away from the shot when the vis is 2 feet.
Reels are for shooting bags and tying them off when the boat is anchored, and is going to stay anchored.
^^^ and this is true where I live and dive. It may make no sense at all elsewhere.
The thing is that everyone views the world according to their own experiences. What works in one place might not work in other places. Do an ascent under a bag after deploying it free from a spool on the Doria sometime and you'll be in the water overnight. Adapt to the environment.
Crack bottles are a huge time saver. Heck, my HUGE one is a 2 litre bottle on a 250 pound lift bag... ever try to blow a porthole with a rebreather's gas supply? Bailout is for bailout... not portholes...
:banana1:
Dave
.
It's all easy until it's done in the dark, in a current, in five foot vis.
Finger spools are for swimming away from the shot when the vis is 2 feet.
Reels are for shooting bags and tying them off when the boat is anchored, and is going to stay anchored.
^^^ and this is true where I live and dive. It may make no sense at all elsewhere.
The thing is that everyone views the world according to their own experiences. What works in one place might not work in other places. Do an ascent under a bag after deploying it free from a spool on the Doria sometime and you'll be in the water overnight. Adapt to the environment.
Crack bottles are a huge time saver. Heck, my HUGE one is a 2 litre bottle on a 250 pound lift bag... ever try to blow a porthole with a rebreather's gas supply? Bailout is for bailout... not portholes...
:banana1:
Dave
.
Tiptopperoo
CCRx Supporter
^^^ Dave you pirate. You clearly don't have a no take policy or philosophy out your way. I would get shot if I talked about blowing portholes this way. It does sound like fun, but I've never tried.
When I said I didn't think through the loss of buoyancy procedure with the reel and bag vs spool and bag, I was thinking that I quite liked the idea of just filling the bag, then hanging onto it and dumping air from it. This sounds like a possible solution, although if you let go you're stuff. I spose you could clip it off to a chest D-ring but then you're inviting more trouble if the ascent gets away from you.
What do we think. Loss of buoyancy shoot a bag on a line (reel or spool, whichever is appropriate for the depth) or just inflate the bag and hang on?
Another question for you guys diving things like the Doria, do you use thicker line than standard cave line that comes on spools? Do you ever tie off to the wreck and then ascend while hanging on to the reel to stop yourself drifting away? You must use up a heap of line doing it that way. Or do you just always, ALWAYS ensure you return to the shotline and then use a jonline?
Dave
When I said I didn't think through the loss of buoyancy procedure with the reel and bag vs spool and bag, I was thinking that I quite liked the idea of just filling the bag, then hanging onto it and dumping air from it. This sounds like a possible solution, although if you let go you're stuff. I spose you could clip it off to a chest D-ring but then you're inviting more trouble if the ascent gets away from you.
What do we think. Loss of buoyancy shoot a bag on a line (reel or spool, whichever is appropriate for the depth) or just inflate the bag and hang on?
Another question for you guys diving things like the Doria, do you use thicker line than standard cave line that comes on spools? Do you ever tie off to the wreck and then ascend while hanging on to the reel to stop yourself drifting away? You must use up a heap of line doing it that way. Or do you just always, ALWAYS ensure you return to the shotline and then use a jonline?
Dave
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Dave Sutton
Banned
^^^ Don't forget who gaffed and brought the Doria Bell onto his boat two summers ago... :trophy:
And I used the wrong term. "Shooting" a porthole means sending it up on a bag. "Blowing" a porthole means using Primacord and a blasting cap to detach one... :naughty:
Let's see: Loss of buoyancy. Don't let it happen to you. Two means of making things positive is plenty, or so it seems. Drysuit and Rig, Rig and Wings, Drysuit and Wings, and when you have Drysuit, Rig, and Wings you ought to be roses.
I'd be damned if I'd climb a small diameter line that I'd shot to the surface with a bag. I'd be pretty unhappy climbing the anchor line, never mind a small diameter line. I'd be hanging on my bag with it clipped off to me before I did that.
Doria et-al emergency plans: We don't dive when the current is so fast that we cannot shoot a tied-off bag and hang on it. Yes... things change mid-dive at times, it's a tidally influenced area, but we time the dives if we can, bearing in mind the daylight available. The boat is securely moored to the wreck, so having it cut loose to chase a lost diver is a REAL emergency. We do keep a RIB boat in the water and ready to chase down wayward divers, but that's an emergency too: Sending a guy out 100 miles offshore in an 11 foot rubber boat with a 6 HP engine on it is a life threatening thing for the boat driver, never mind the divers. The chase boat has GPS (handheld) and a VHF radio (also handheld), the fear being fog, which comes on out there in a matter of a few minutes at times. The Zodiac is large enough to pick up two divers. Not their gear. You need the chase boat... you lose your rig. We might tie it off or try to tow it, but it's not coming aboard. So if you need to be chased down... you are really desperate. The divers are briefed on this, and the importance of making it back to the anchor line. We treat the mooring like a cave-entrance: It is an overhead environment in a dfferent sort of way. You WILL come back up the anchor line. The boat is tied to it. That's where the food will be served. Want dinner? Get back to the line.
With that said, and I cannot speak for all others-just me: I carry a Salvo (nee Light Monkey) exploring reel, one of the huge ones that you would use to lay gold-line in a cave, it being basically the same as your Halcyon or Salvo or Light Monkey cave reel only about 3X larger. Normally these have about 1000 feet of cave line on them. I use much larger diameter non-stretch line and have about 350 feet on it. I also carry the crack-bottle RADAR reflective Custom Divers SMB that I put the link up earlier for. The plan for lost-mooring (which would be because the boat broke out of the wreck, not because I got lost) would be to shoot the bag, tie it off, and hang on the line. The diameter of the line is adequate to use a Jon-Line on if needed. You need something large enough to hold with a gloved hand, and large enough to hook Jon-Line clip to.
Final emergency plan is just to drift-hang under the bag. That is an absolute emergency. That's what the RADAR reflective SMB is all about, plus the 406 Mhz PLB, and the GPS/VHF radio in a waterproof can. Plus the sea-dye marker, and the lights, and the velcro on the hood to slap a strobe onto (learned from the way the Navy Pilots have their helmets set up), etc. Plus the briefing to everyone to tell the USCG helo guys that I will be sweeping the horizon with my light every fifteen minutes once night falls to make it easy for crews with night vision goggles to find me, etc.
I had a very good friend spend a day and a night and most of the next day floating and floating and floating..... with sharks bumping him in the middle of the night... not good. He was picked up about 75 miles from the wreck by a commercial fishing boat. I think I'll find the anchor line, thank you kindly.
Dave
.
And I used the wrong term. "Shooting" a porthole means sending it up on a bag. "Blowing" a porthole means using Primacord and a blasting cap to detach one... :naughty:
Let's see: Loss of buoyancy. Don't let it happen to you. Two means of making things positive is plenty, or so it seems. Drysuit and Rig, Rig and Wings, Drysuit and Wings, and when you have Drysuit, Rig, and Wings you ought to be roses.
I'd be damned if I'd climb a small diameter line that I'd shot to the surface with a bag. I'd be pretty unhappy climbing the anchor line, never mind a small diameter line. I'd be hanging on my bag with it clipped off to me before I did that.
Doria et-al emergency plans: We don't dive when the current is so fast that we cannot shoot a tied-off bag and hang on it. Yes... things change mid-dive at times, it's a tidally influenced area, but we time the dives if we can, bearing in mind the daylight available. The boat is securely moored to the wreck, so having it cut loose to chase a lost diver is a REAL emergency. We do keep a RIB boat in the water and ready to chase down wayward divers, but that's an emergency too: Sending a guy out 100 miles offshore in an 11 foot rubber boat with a 6 HP engine on it is a life threatening thing for the boat driver, never mind the divers. The chase boat has GPS (handheld) and a VHF radio (also handheld), the fear being fog, which comes on out there in a matter of a few minutes at times. The Zodiac is large enough to pick up two divers. Not their gear. You need the chase boat... you lose your rig. We might tie it off or try to tow it, but it's not coming aboard. So if you need to be chased down... you are really desperate. The divers are briefed on this, and the importance of making it back to the anchor line. We treat the mooring like a cave-entrance: It is an overhead environment in a dfferent sort of way. You WILL come back up the anchor line. The boat is tied to it. That's where the food will be served. Want dinner? Get back to the line.
With that said, and I cannot speak for all others-just me: I carry a Salvo (nee Light Monkey) exploring reel, one of the huge ones that you would use to lay gold-line in a cave, it being basically the same as your Halcyon or Salvo or Light Monkey cave reel only about 3X larger. Normally these have about 1000 feet of cave line on them. I use much larger diameter non-stretch line and have about 350 feet on it. I also carry the crack-bottle RADAR reflective Custom Divers SMB that I put the link up earlier for. The plan for lost-mooring (which would be because the boat broke out of the wreck, not because I got lost) would be to shoot the bag, tie it off, and hang on the line. The diameter of the line is adequate to use a Jon-Line on if needed. You need something large enough to hold with a gloved hand, and large enough to hook Jon-Line clip to.
Final emergency plan is just to drift-hang under the bag. That is an absolute emergency. That's what the RADAR reflective SMB is all about, plus the 406 Mhz PLB, and the GPS/VHF radio in a waterproof can. Plus the sea-dye marker, and the lights, and the velcro on the hood to slap a strobe onto (learned from the way the Navy Pilots have their helmets set up), etc. Plus the briefing to everyone to tell the USCG helo guys that I will be sweeping the horizon with my light every fifteen minutes once night falls to make it easy for crews with night vision goggles to find me, etc.
I had a very good friend spend a day and a night and most of the next day floating and floating and floating..... with sharks bumping him in the middle of the night... not good. He was picked up about 75 miles from the wreck by a commercial fishing boat. I think I'll find the anchor line, thank you kindly.
Dave
.
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Mike Ferguson
WTF is that?
I find it interesting how our colonial cousins are happiest tied into a wreck whereas most UK boats wouldn't even contemplate the idea and use a shot line. If you use a shot you can sit downtide of the buoy and stooge about with the boat on the best heading to minimise roll while kitting up and waiting for divers. Once the divers are in I perform a drift trial (i.e. put the kettle on with the engines in neutral) to see which way the divers are likely to be heading if they do miss the shotline and position the boat in that sector within sight of the shot. As the boat is not moored, if anyone does miss the shotline and shoots a bag from the wreck you are in a position to drift with them and be there when they surface (as well as collect any er recovered weightbelts, etc that may come up on a bag). Should a bit of fog descend you know where the rest of your divers are as you know where the shotline is.
In tidal conditions we quite often just come up the shot and as soon as everyone is there let go and drift together either under smbs or a dedicated seperate drifting shot. It's a lot more comfortable than flapping in the breeze bumping into each other on a heaving anchor line.
Whilst I do occasionally anchor into a wreck on a perfect calm day with no tide I do feel that, even with the squidge deployed ready to drag people back to the boat, it limits your ability to swiftly rescue a diver who surfaces away from the boat.
With regard to shooting a dsmb and tying off on the wreck to create a new shot line to ascend, I have done it, but everytime I have done it in a strong tide I have eventually snapped the line. If the tide is strong enough you also end up needing a huge amount of buoyancy to avoid the tide just pulling you back down to the seabed.
having been off for an hour or so on my own in the open sea and having lost friends for up to 8 hours in the past I carry a crack bottle DSMB, 120m reel, backup DSMB, 40m reel, two torches, day/night flare and a nautilus lifeline VHF/GPS/strobe that can send my position to the boat VHF. I also have been toying with the idea of making a small pressure housing for a lightstick.
However I 100% agree with Dave that the best way not to be lost at sea is to make you're way back to the shot in the first place.
mike
In tidal conditions we quite often just come up the shot and as soon as everyone is there let go and drift together either under smbs or a dedicated seperate drifting shot. It's a lot more comfortable than flapping in the breeze bumping into each other on a heaving anchor line.
Whilst I do occasionally anchor into a wreck on a perfect calm day with no tide I do feel that, even with the squidge deployed ready to drag people back to the boat, it limits your ability to swiftly rescue a diver who surfaces away from the boat.
With regard to shooting a dsmb and tying off on the wreck to create a new shot line to ascend, I have done it, but everytime I have done it in a strong tide I have eventually snapped the line. If the tide is strong enough you also end up needing a huge amount of buoyancy to avoid the tide just pulling you back down to the seabed.
having been off for an hour or so on my own in the open sea and having lost friends for up to 8 hours in the past I carry a crack bottle DSMB, 120m reel, backup DSMB, 40m reel, two torches, day/night flare and a nautilus lifeline VHF/GPS/strobe that can send my position to the boat VHF. I also have been toying with the idea of making a small pressure housing for a lightstick.
However I 100% agree with Dave that the best way not to be lost at sea is to make you're way back to the shot in the first place.
mike
Dave Sutton
Banned
Mike.
We are on the Doria for days.
Mooring works here. Easier to barbecue.
Dave
.
We are on the Doria for days.
Mooring works here. Easier to barbecue.
Dave
.
dwaynej
New Member
I have yet to dive in any serious tidal conditions and from what you and others write, it sounds like a whole new learning experience.
Mike Ferguson
WTF is that?
that's just cheating. most days we're lucky if we can make a cup of tea without it ending up on the floor. I guess those waves have 3000 miles to grow before they fetch up here.
mike