Ratio deco for ccr?

[cys]

I am not singling out people but rather calling Bullshit when I see it on what in my opinion is the equivelent of piling 4 people into an aircraft and attempting to dead reckon their way across the atlantic to the UK.... with each of them thinking the other one knows what to do if they get lost.

In the spirit of calling BS, you're making RD way too hard. There is not much math involved. Even a monkey could do it.

 

[lamont]

Now that I'm reasonably free of GUE, I'm starting to dive with a computer, but plan dives with a deco-planner, execute dives with "ratio deco" (really just memorized linearized tables knowing how much +/- deco needs to be added based on bottom time) and then run the computer as a backup. Mostly just use it at the 20 foot stop. Generally its right about on the money. Very similar to running an eCCR manually and just using the solenoid as a parachute, but its just using the computer as a parachute. I'm still only Mod1 so I haven't applied this to CCR, but it doesn't seem like rocket science to apply the same principles...

Until I hit this thread, though, I wasn't aware that I'm going to die if I think about my deco any more than just following the computer on my wrist...

 

[lizardland]

Lizard land, can we at least set a base line that task loading is an inverse relationship to survivability?

A dead computer or ending up longer or deeper isn't exactly an emergency. If you were of a nervous disposition then it might just make it into the inconvenience category.

Anyway... Why assume that you would be waiting until the least convenient moment to calculate the plan?

The way I do RD, check the BT, use the appropriate multiplier and divide the ascent into three proportionate chunks. If that's going to lower my chances of survival then RB diving really isn't for me.

I guess the application period for the Dave Sutton Memorial Chair of Self-Righteousness is now open

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[ebt]

This thing is drifting more than the british economy.....

Where we are nowadays is that CCR diving is limited by bailout volume, or for some of us, thermal considerations.

Pre dive planning can consist of tables, RD, dive computer or surface software (the smartphone revolution has removed the days of swearing at a laptop on a rocking boat). If all three methods produce an answer thats broadly similar, what does the method matter?

All this leaves is the 'in water' debate and it sounds almost like a religious battle. I think whatever the answer, anyone who relies on just one thing to run their deco is fooling themselves.... which brings us back to the 'its just a tool' point

 

[Mr fish]

no, its what I see. what are you seeing or diving?

ello Monkey

i see lots of numbers being used , sometime,s its down to the user or the unit or how the unit is set up ,

wreck dive
cave dive .

Id like to say,

for me reading this thread , its hard to know whats right and whats wrong .
if you guys over the pond . could when posting let me know

how long a big dive is
what depth a big dive is
is it a cave and are you 3 mile,s back in it
or is it a wreck dive in open water
or maybe a inland pond ,

I only ask cos i seem to get all sorts of numbers for all the above ,
would help me no end ,

1.3 on 3hr wreck dives is what i see , now some may have a unit that they
have to feed o2 in over the top , put that,s as much use to me as this voodoo deco your banging on about ,

if i,m 3miles back on a 9m cave dive. I may not be diving that cave the same way id dive a 80m wreck in open sea.:ghey:

voodoo deco .
yes i could pull some numbers out my arse if need be ,
would not be v gueeeeeeeee , but id get my self home , so id rather know how , than NOT ,


thanks

 

[Monkey]

A dead computer or ending up longer or deeper isn't exactly an emergency. If you were of a nervous disposition then it might just make it into the inconvenience category.

Anyway... Why assume that you would be waiting until the least convenient moment to calculate the plan?

The way I do RD, check the BT, use the appropriate multiplier and divide the ascent into three proportionate chunks. If that's going to lower my chances of survival then RB diving really isn't for me.

I guess the application period for the Dave Sutton Memorial Chair of Self-Righteousness is now open

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

A dead computer is not an emergency, since only an idiot carries 1. and for the purposes of remediation. I will repeat my self. how does RD fair in an actual real emergency? how does the brain handled executing RD when you have to think about it when the shit hits the fan.

we train and train and practice and practice drills, so in a crisis our rote memory kicks in and hopefully we mitigate the problem. When and where you calculate the plan is boarder line irrelivent. if your dependant on your over taxed mental capacities then for some this ends Really Really BAD.


The people here that embrace this lunacy seem to only be cable of arguing the point as long as they discuss using it outside of a real emergency. Even an abacus can do the job when there is no emergency.

And to bring Dave into this make you more like him than me. So how about we leave him out of it since he is no longer here?

Ratio Deco is a tool and if its the only tool then by all means use it. BUT IT NEVER EVER IS. So I will repeat my self again.... Its a solution looking for a problem.

 

[lizardland]

It fares as any other plan would. Like I asked, why assume you wait until the crux to do any calcs?

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[Monkey]

All this leaves is the 'in water' debate and it sounds almost like a religious battle. I think whatever the answer, anyone who relies on just one thing to run their deco is fooling themselves.... which brings us back to the 'its just a tool' point

NO one will ever win a religious battle and DIR/GUE is as religious as they come.

I fail to see any new points being made in this thread. I am even repeating my self.

 

[GLOC]

A dead computer is not an emergency, since only an idiot carries 1. and for the purposes of remediation. I will repeat my self. how does RD fair in an actual real emergency? how does the brain handled executing RD when you have to think about it when the shit hits the fan.

What emergencies are you talking about? If you are talking about rescuing someone from in water, anything more than a few minutes to the surface when you have a serious decompression overhead, your buddy is going to be dead anyway so you are onto a body recovery. Running out of gas, how is the computer going to help you? OxTox, how is the computer going to help you? Cutting short your deco, how is your computer going to help you because you are going to have to do something in your head to reduce the figures unless in water you can change the GF and you know what is an acceptable short-cut.

we train and train and practice and practice drills, so in a crisis our rote memory kicks in and hopefully we mitigate the problem. When and where you calculate the plan is boarder line irrelivent. if your dependant on your over taxed mental capacities then for some this ends Really Really BAD.

I would argue that the majority of CCR divers do not practice and practice and practice their drills, not the complex ones anyway. This is the potential disconnect between very experienced and passionate divers who live and breathe (CCR) diving and have a very positive attitude to training and safety, and the rest of the diving community who see it as having fun at the weekend/mid-week.

The people here that embrace this lunacy seem to only be cable of arguing the point as long as they discuss using it outside of a real emergency. Even an abacus can do the job when there is no emergency.

Again what emergencies are we talking about?

Ratio Deco is a tool and if its the only tool then by all means use it. BUT IT NEVER EVER IS. So I will repeat my self again.... Its a solution looking for a problem.

The solution is having a better understanding of what is acceptable to you as a diver, be that whatever tool you use. The tool is your head, not the one strapped to your wrist.

Regards

 

[Monkey]

It fares as any other plan would. Like I asked, why assume you wait until the crux to do any calcs?

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some where I am missing something, you have people doing this calculation INWATER? Yes or NO?

and if its being done IN WATER, what are you clairavoiant? and you know exactly the time when the emergency is going to hit so this leaves you with ample opportunity a head of time to handle the calculation like guessing correct lottery numbers??

 

[Randy Thornton]

Gentlemen, I am now stepping in here with my moderator hat on and asking that all involved with this thread please avoid using derogatory terms like "moron" and "idiot". Additionally, let's please not drag in 3rd party people who are no longer on the board.

I really do appreciate the interesting dialog and there are strong points being made on both sides of the equation, but here at CCRX we expect a tone of mutual respect at all times. Although, I know that none of you are trying to make this personal, there are others on the board that can and are misinterpreting your comments.

Thanks in advance for understanding!

 

[Monkey]

ello Monkey

i see lots of numbers being used , sometime,s its down to the user or the unit or how the unit is set up ,

wreck dive
cave dive .

Id like to say,

for me reading this thread , its hard to know whats right and whats wrong .
if you guys over the pond . could when posting let me know

how long a big dive is
what depth a big dive is
is it a cave and are you 3 mile,s back in it
or is it a wreck dive in open water
or maybe a inland pond ,

I only ask cos i seem to get all sorts of numbers for all the above ,
would help me no end ,

1.3 on 3hr wreck dives is what i see , now some may have a unit that they
have to feed o2 in over the top , put that,s as much use to me as this voodoo deco your banging on about ,

if i,m 3miles back on a 9m cave dive. I may not be diving that cave the same way id dive a 80m wreck in open sea.:ghey:

voodoo deco .
yes i could pull some numbers out my arse if need be ,
would not be v gueeeeeeeee , but id get my self home , so id rather know how , than NOT ,


thanks

my suggestion is we break this conversation part off into new thread.

 

[ebt]

some where I am missing something, you have people doing this calculation INWATER? Yes or NO?

Yes AND No (contrary eh?)

Run the plan before the dive, then on the dive if you want to re-run it, you can.

At the end of the day the only real emergency is breathing, as long as you have something to breath, you've got time to sort everything else out.

 

[lizardland]

some where I am missing something, you have people doing this calculation INWATER? Yes or NO?

and if its being done IN WATER, what are you clairavoiant? and you know exactly the time when the emergency is going to hit so this leaves you with ample opportunity a head of time to handle the calculation like guessing correct lottery numbers??

I've no idea or interest in what anyone else is doing. If they are getting in the water with no plan then I find that a bit hard to swallow and not really something I want to emulate.

I have my dive planned. If anything happens then any mod to it is hardly taxing.

You seem happy to tell us what everyone is using to plan dives, setpoints, etc. I'm not, I only know what I and those around me do and waiting until ascent time to work out deco isn't it.

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[Monkey]

Gloc, I am talking about any emergcency that taxes the brain to the point where your mental faculties are degraded. so take your pick. If I saw aqua man on a Seahorse attacking me with the help of a humpback wale my mental faculties would be a little off.

and this comment of yours is so unbelivably true. and I think its worse in the states than say in the UK becuase we do not "club" dive like you guys do

Quote from Gloc: "I would argue that the majority of CCR divers do not practice and practice and practice their drills, not the complex ones anyway. This is the potential disconnect between very experienced and passionate divers who live and breathe (CCR) diving and have a very positive attitude to training and safety, and the rest of the diving community who see it as having fun at the weekend/mid-week."

Quote from Gloc: "you are going to have to do something in your head to reduce the figures unless in water you can change the GF and you know what is an acceptable short-cut."

and my response to this comment is dive a shearwater, in the lower right we have A GF number of 99 and that lets you know in a millisecond how hard you can push to reduce your deco, you need to go agressive in an emergency? then you can push that to as close to a 99 as you feel comfortable. NO MENTAL CALCULATION NEEDED.... YOU JUST FOLLOW A NUMBER CONVIENTLY GIVEN TO YOU BY MORE THAT ONE COMPUTER.

lastly your comment about the "tool being your head" true even with computers. but your not going to be able to convince me its less prone to a deco calculation mistake than a computer .

 

[Monkey]

I've no idea or interest in what anyone else is doing. If they are getting in the water with no plan then I find that a bit hard to swallow and not really something I want to emulate.

I have my dive planned. If anything happens then any mod to it is hardly taxing.

You seem happy to tell us what everyone is using to plan dives, setpoints, etc. I'm not, I only know what I and those around me do and waiting until ascent time to work out deco isn't it.

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No where in any of these posts have grouped things into the "everyone" catagory. please reread.

and my comment about set points was an observation about what the majority use, I even used the concept of a bell curve, and by its nature accounts for outliers. I see no problem with you being some where on the side slope of the curve. I never said this was a problem. so again please reread. I am fairly sure I have not even used to word "everyone" any where in any of this thread.

so please help me out with some thing by example. we as a group head into the water with a set bottom time with a pre thought out decompression plan that could have been calculated days if not weeks in advance. lets call it a plan for 100M for 10 minutes. what happens with Ratio deco calculations when that plan goes south and your stuck at 100M for 18 minutes. WHEN was that Ratio deco calculation then performed?

At the time of Assent NO???

 

[Daffy]

Well, this has been one of the more exiting threads so far. It is so clear and polarized and I like the manly bantering.:chuckle:

Unfortunately no one has been able to help the OP out with a solution to his problem, a problem that many of us share. It can be difficult to predict deco when on a multilevel cave dive. Maybe we should just start a separate thread for that…:sarcy:

But to continue in the spirit of the discussion, I like computers. I have two of them. If lightning strikes they will both fail, apparently, but I will be okay since I am deep under water. If I had a bottom timer, or even two of them, they would also fail I assume. Then I would be fraked, I don’t bring any analogous depth gauges or timing devices so I have no idea of where to stop or how long to stay there. I don’t see how RD or tables can help me then either. If my electronic tracking thingies dies they are dead, no matter if they are BT or computers. Fortunately I mostly dive in overhead so I should be pretty safe from lightning.:big:

Swimming around with my two computers I also have a third one on top. I know this heavy dependence on technology will end me up on a railway track high in the mountains but I feel they are way better than me at math. Some really bright scientists have come up with equations to keep me safe and while I am naturally rebellious towards authority I trust these guys over me. So I plan my dives to see what deco to expect and, most important, find out how much B/O I need to bring. If I do the same dive profile again and again I don’t plan it every time, I remember.

Now with looking at plans and diving dives you start to see patterns. I like patterns. With these patterns you can estimate things, like if I stay this much longer I have to this much more deco. Or if I stay and deco at this depth instead of going shallower I have to deco this much longer. This makes me feel good inside, when I figure something out in my head and then see that the computer agrees.

It is a little bit like OC when you think your pressure gauge is supposed to show something and when you check it does. If it doesn’t then something is amiss. Either it is broken or you are, trust the most conservative one.

Back to the OP Q. Maybe we really should move this to Cave Section or start anew there. I would like to know how others do to figure out deco for more erratic cave exploration. I mean, you still have to plan ahead for B/O so you can only stay so long in order for the drop tanks to last. This means there are only so many different scenarios there could be while still staying under the umbrella. And if it goes off the chart in the end, the cave is still there tomorrow.:cuddle:

 

[Randy Thornton]

Back to the OP Q. Maybe we really should move this to Cave Section or start anew there. I would like to know how others do to figure out deco for more erratic cave exploration. I mean, you still have to plan ahead for B/O so you can only stay so long in order for the drop tanks to last. This means there are only so many different scenarios there could be while still staying under the umbrella. And if it goes off the chart in the end, the cave is still there tomorrow.:cuddle:

I agree. I think this is where it gets very interesting. Cave exploration by design means that you don't really know what to expect and therefore are somewhat guessing about the deco calculations. Certainly, whether using RD or a sophisticated dive computer, there will be changes to pre-dive planning without a doubt. In my opinion, for CCR cave exploration, the problem does not lie so much with the deco calculations as it does with the bailout. (I use computers during the dive and a laptop program before the dive to plan) For multi-level cave exploration, it becomes quite a challenge to calculate bailout needs.

 

[lizardland]

Assuming it wasn't already on the slate... All you need to know is where the first stop is then you've all the time in the world. If I couldn't do it by the end of the first stop something is badly amiss, it's a 20s task.

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[Monkey]

Assuming it wasn't already on the slate... All you need to know is where the first stop is then you've all the time in the world. If I couldn't do it by the end of the first stop something is badly amiss, it's a 20s task.

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Jesus...... you and I are so close in agreement.


your statement alone tells me that there are a sliver few people that are using ratio deco ass wrong, and its painting a dim view of its use. Your seem to maby not be one of those special needs people.


Your above statement is essentially a core part of how I dive. my large bail out is 50% so my goal is to use my deep water bail out to get me to 70 feet as fast as possible. Once at 70 feet, I have a boat load of time to calm down and sort out what needs to be done to get out safely.

this is one of the reasons we practice real deep water bail outs.. personally I have bailed on purpose from 270 just to build the proccess into my rote memory.

we are not that far apart, I think our grenades migh be a hold over from colonial times