Ok then, IMHO and based on using packed beds for other applications then yes, they could be valid in extreme circumstances, though I'm not 100% sure I agree with the instructor's rationale!
Myth busting - Scrubbers
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Ok then, IMHO and based on using packed beds for other applications then yes, they could be valid in extreme circumstances, though I'm not 100% sure I agree with the instructor's rationale!
Chris Brown
Official CAMRA ale tester
Yes and then because people were overpacking, a press release was issued and a video put out showing people how simple and quick it really is.
Either way will work. Thirds will work too. I only called Andy on his thirds claim to demonstrate that he was perhaps contradicting himself by claiming instructors are spouting BS and then telling people to pack scrubbers in thirds. Which as clarified by me, Michael and Randy, isnt the case for all units.
I think this is a storm in a teacup
BTW: some of you have requested the video. If anyone else wants one, just send me a PM
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Chris Brown
Official CAMRA ale tester
So let me get this straight. Based on my reply to the OP, your comments are directed at me specifically? You think I am spouting BS and making things up in the manner you describe? You think that I am demonstrating 'simplistic thinking' and that Im 'feeding them bollocks' and 'making up facts' and 'presenting it as evidence?'
The point of packing is to fill the available space with sorb and avoid any risk of channelling. However you achieve it, thats your goal. Overpacking is when you're compromising the structural integrity of the lime (crushing it). Provided the lime is filling a space, its grain shape etc is what will dictate the inter-granule gas flow path.
Different units have design features intended to achieve proper packing. Sprung scrubbers aim to allow for settling while travelling, so they allow for a relatively loose fill. Some units dont have this, so you achieve a proper fill with your initial packing (fill&tap).
Why thirds or half fill etc? Simple, its so that stupid arsed divers dont forget it and get dragged into a multi page navel gazing debate with the judean peoples front of scrubber packing. In reality they're just techniques. if you prefer to do it via 1/4's you might as well (at least until someone thinks its worth doing some proper testing on fill procedures).
As to the differences in manufacturer recommendations, this will come down to how the mechanical design copes with settling & of course any unit specific wob elements....
Meanwhile in the real world, pack it so it doesnt rattle and you dont crush it and its good enough in pretty much any unit.
Different units have design features intended to achieve proper packing. Sprung scrubbers aim to allow for settling while travelling, so they allow for a relatively loose fill. Some units dont have this, so you achieve a proper fill with your initial packing (fill&tap).
Why thirds or half fill etc? Simple, its so that stupid arsed divers dont forget it and get dragged into a multi page navel gazing debate with the judean peoples front of scrubber packing. In reality they're just techniques. if you prefer to do it via 1/4's you might as well (at least until someone thinks its worth doing some proper testing on fill procedures).
As to the differences in manufacturer recommendations, this will come down to how the mechanical design copes with settling & of course any unit specific wob elements....
Meanwhile in the real world, pack it so it doesnt rattle and you dont crush it and its good enough in pretty much any unit.
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I'm wondering - is it really possible to actually crush sorb when you're packing it in a scrubber? From what I remember, at least sofnolime 797 grains are quite hard.
How much force do you need to crush one between your fingers? A few kg's? How much force would you need to crush them when filled in a scrubber cartridge of 20 cm diameter? Hundreds of kg's?!
Sounds impossible to achieve that kind of force in a scrubber, especially the Inspo/Evo ones.
How much force do you need to crush one between your fingers? A few kg's? How much force would you need to crush them when filled in a scrubber cartridge of 20 cm diameter? Hundreds of kg's?!
Sounds impossible to achieve that kind of force in a scrubber, especially the Inspo/Evo ones.
Chris Brown
Official CAMRA ale tester
Oh yes its possible - and common. It creates a load of dust. The dust doesnt scrub co2
Then again - dont listen to me. Im just a shitbag instructor that makes stuff up to look important in the absence of any real facts
matt
Well-Known Member
The problem with "crushing" on the inspo is more to do with canister deformation. Once the canister is over full it no longer slides properly in the can which in turn prevents the springs pushing the cannister against the oring making the seal. You will definitely get break through if the canister is stuck half way down the tube and the oring is not engaged.
Perhaps different in other canister designs, especially none plastic ones.
Matt.
Chris Brown
Official CAMRA ale tester
The springs when inside the canister combine with the downforce of the mixing chamber and lid to keep both the absorbent tight in the scrubber and also keep the scrubber sealed against the o-ring.
I am just a shitbag ex CCR-diver theorizing stuff just for the sake of it... so I know I'm right! :rotate:
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
Cool.
All i was stating is doing it my way I have never suffered channeling or any form of C02 hit on the Inspo, KISS rEvo or JJ
So the "risk" of over packing seems a tad exaggerated as Id surely have had a hit by now?
When the over packing scare came out back in 07/8 or when ever APD made that video, People became frightened of tight packs so they went the other way and under packed.
My friend Pete did his version of the APD pac, gave the scrubber to me, i slapped it about a bit and turned it into a Maraca.
He packed it a little bit tighter after that.
I don't see how its possible to crush the lime simply by slapping the side of the can to get settlement. The center nut is simply flicked round with one finger till it stops moving. Once the slapping of the sides stop allowing free movement of the center nut, the fill is complete.
Surely the lime can only settle dong it this way? how would it get crushed?
Regardless i am big on empirical data. Whilst divers around me suffer C02 hits, I haven't so i am unlikely to change the way i do fills.
ATB
Mark
Chris Brown
Official CAMRA ale tester
Its not possible just with tapping as far as I can tell.
Problem with the inspo can is you can finger tighten the wheel and then tap some more, then tighten the wheel again and keep repeating half a dozen times. Some divers were then taking the spider off and topping up with more sorb to 'extend the duration' of the scrubber.
This is my definition of overpacking and what causes granules to crush and create dust and increase WOB.
I dont have any comment or data in terms of c02 exothermic reaction being compromised on an overpacked scrubber just to be clear.
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
How can the springs tension the o-ring without pushing the sorb ... which prevents settled sorb from moving around and arguably therefore packing the cannister?
matt
Well-Known Member
Clearly they take up the slack, if that is what is meant by packing. The point I tried to make is that it is not the primary function, the springs are pretty puny and are not going to crush the lime.
There is a good (but odd) video that sort-of demonstrates thiis on youtube somewhere...trying to show sprung scubbers don't work - which is arguably true if you view the springs as a packing aid.
Cheers
Matt.