uwxplorer
rEvo carrier
What is "a serious case of death"? Are some less serious than others?
Is CCRX of any true value?
- Thread starter Randy Thornton
- Start date
What is "a serious case of death"? Are some less serious than others?
SlowDiver
Member
I know the question wasn't pointing to me but I think I have the answer. When I was a Red Cross Water Safety Instructor training Life Guards we had a saying "I would rather go to your funeral than have you come to mine". Which means go out there and save lives but don't let the job kill you in the process.
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CCRx is very useful, you just have to remember that across the spectrum of posters you have the full bell curve and each post has to be weighed to consider what the poster might actually know, are they just ignorant, is it just an opinion or are there facts which give substance to the topic!
Getting actual facts to discuss both sides of a topic in this commercially weighted environment appears apparently the most troublesome issue. Take WOB of a BOV as an example! Until manufacturers and users start being a little bit more open, discussion of a lot of topics will only be based on opinion rather than the actual technical detail needed to make an informed choice.
Regards
Brad
Getting actual facts to discuss both sides of a topic in this commercially weighted environment appears apparently the most troublesome issue. Take WOB of a BOV as an example! Until manufacturers and users start being a little bit more open, discussion of a lot of topics will only be based on opinion rather than the actual technical detail needed to make an informed choice.
Regards
Brad
steady1570
CCRX Supporter
As a newcomer to CCR I have definitely found the information on this (and other) forums invaluable. As a few others have said, you need to filter and think about things yourself before deciding on the utility of the information provided. I (mostly) lurk on these sites and try to read as many different threads as I can, not just the ones that are directly relevant to my diving, in order to get a feel for the poster and whether what they write is worth believing 
-Mark
-Mark
Ben Field
All IMVHO obviously...
The problem with Forums (the internet in general) is the lack of a way to quantify things, Dr Mitchell ably demonstrated this in a talk with IIRC the Bristol Stool Chart- just like the internet, its all different types of sh*t.
Another issue is so many posters have an agenda, its usually those accusing others of having one that have one themselves
If everyone honestly declared their allegiances, paymasters and experience we could access them but that will never happen!
That said, CCRX has value, the shame is you need a certain amount of skill to spot the wood for the trees. (perhaps less so here than elsewhere but the problem exists, there is more noise than good data)
Another issue is so many posters have an agenda, its usually those accusing others of having one that have one themselves
If everyone honestly declared their allegiances, paymasters and experience we could access them but that will never happen!
That said, CCRX has value, the shame is you need a certain amount of skill to spot the wood for the trees. (perhaps less so here than elsewhere but the problem exists, there is more noise than good data)
DSix36
Well-Known Member
Let's be completely honest here!!! Not all divers are fortunate enough to live in South Florida where they can have direct access to my advice, insight, experience, and bullshit. Some divers are forced to come on the forums for this wealth of knowledge.
Forums offer a lot to a diver that is willing to sort through all the info and make an informed decision on their own. Not everything on the internet is true or fact. Differing opinions can also lead to independent thinking and possibly something new or better.
I think that keeping an open mind might very well be the most important aspect of forum interaction.
Forums offer a lot to a diver that is willing to sort through all the info and make an informed decision on their own. Not everything on the internet is true or fact. Differing opinions can also lead to independent thinking and possibly something new or better.
I think that keeping an open mind might very well be the most important aspect of forum interaction.
Uwe Sieg
UweS
+1
rolanddiver
Member
Without forums like this i wouldn't have learnt so much about rebreathers that i finally ended up building my own amd actually now i'm building my 3rd homebuilt. Thanks everyone for the info you put out there.
Roland
Sent from my Commodore 64 using Wizard of War...
Roland
Sent from my Commodore 64 using Wizard of War...
markdol1
CCRX Supporter
I find all forums value to me,most of the bad info is out front for all to see and judge.I find most usefull advise comes from senior RB divers with the most dives under their belts and have made the mistakes, improvements and methods are more honest and willing to share without an axe to grind or a soapbox to stand on.I thank you for great advise especially that has not been censored!
Spot on.
I've always appreciated open and available communication that this and other forums provide. Understanding the above truths keeps things in perspective.
Garth
Tunnel Vision
Here's my opinion...
Even standardized testing can be biased depending on where said standardized test is completed and how.
Thank god we don't require CE testing in the US! Bunch of overpriced horse shit if you ask me.. especially for Rebreathers that are designed and manufactured well.
There ya have it folks! Thats just my opinion.
I would take the quality testing of real life dives over a "machine" any day of the week.
Regards,
Garth
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DSix36
Well-Known Member
I guess that means you will be crossing over to the rEvo in the very near future. Have you picked an instructor yet?
Garth, Please point to a single example of this occurring and how they managed the biase? The whole point of having a standardised test is its scientifically repeatable as everyone knows what settings/criteria to use....
Please point to how you identify that the rebreather is designed well without confirmation of its actual performance. Who said anything about needing to use the CE standards... just so happens that the USN through NEDU conduct testing of rebreathers themselves to a VERY high standard and just so happen to use the same criteria....
Which is useful as it keeps the manufacturers honest! See http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/9902/a550047.pdf?sequence=1
To see why NEDU conduct unmanned testing first to verify what the manufacturers tell them see:
https://www2.dan.org/Research/Conference/2008TechnicalDiving/video.aspx?SelectedVideo=D3_1
https://www2.dan.org/Research/Conference/2008TechnicalDiving/video.aspx?SelectedVideo=D3_3
So would I, if quality testing of real life dives to identify the performance hard decks/limits of rebreathers was achievable, without killing the divers..... Hence why the testing agencies like NEDU and QinetiQ etc etc use unmanned testing as a checksum to verify what the manufacturers say is right or not, and to confirm under what criteria manned diving remains safe.... plenty more serious players in the industry who make much more serious kit than the rb you have, have been caught out by the unmanned testing raises questions of their marketing speil. Most can't be discussed, but one that can is the duration offered by the Divex SLS system which NEDU tested http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...28+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
NEDU as above link said:
Garth
Tunnel Vision
Brad, I mention "my opinion" twice in my post to ensure everyone knew that it was not based on fact however doesn't mean it isn't true.
That's the beauty of the world. There is so much going on that its rather difficult to establish worldwide fact. Are you saying a standardized test done in Italy is comparable to a standardized test in Germany? Or in the US? Do we have it right or do you think there is some variation?
I'm willing to bet that depending on where these standardized tests are done, by whom and which machine etc that different results are obtained.
Interesting concept though.
Garth
I like the ReVO and also like my hammerhead. I could easily dive a REVO and be happy but I would like a BOV on it.
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Garth
Tunnel Vision
The idea that most divers are looking at test results before they purchase Rebreathers is a Farse.
Most divers are looking at the experiences of others diving them which can add a whole
new level of subjectivity.
My big point was that WOB and scrubber time are the least of any concern about the hammerhead.
Many divers have had concerns about electronical issues of the handsets due to the history of the HHCCR as they have worked to innovate.
As it turns out the GPS mapping of dives is not that important to divers so I presume they are going in a different direction now. They are listening to their customers and integrated the shearwater into the options and the NERd.
I guess Brad, I just haven't heard an overwhelming request for testing by anyone who dived a hammerhead because if they are like me they probably believe that we already know it kicks ass and don't want people to "feel bad" about their decisions.
Worst of all, what if DSix found out? He might have to redefine the last 10 years of his life! Imagine the pain he would be in.. He might stop talking to me and that would .... be... Well, let's just not go there.. (Sniffle, choked up).
Garth
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Most divers are looking at the experiences of others diving them which can add a whole
new level of subjectivity.
My big point was that WOB and scrubber time are the least of any concern about the hammerhead.
Many divers have had concerns about electronical issues of the handsets due to the history of the HHCCR as they have worked to innovate.
As it turns out the GPS mapping of dives is not that important to divers so I presume they are going in a different direction now. They are listening to their customers and integrated the shearwater into the options and the NERd.
I guess Brad, I just haven't heard an overwhelming request for testing by anyone who dived a hammerhead because if they are like me they probably believe that we already know it kicks ass and don't want people to "feel bad" about their decisions.
Worst of all, what if DSix found out? He might have to redefine the last 10 years of his life! Imagine the pain he would be in.. He might stop talking to me and that would .... be... Well, let's just not go there.. (Sniffle, choked up).
Garth
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Baron015
Member
Can't agree with you here. Most consumers in Europe live in a world where in general people and corporations aren't allowed to sell goods that are inherently faulty or dangerous by design or in operation. A number of safety standards, BS in the UK and CE in wider Europe, exist to try and make this a reality.
So I am quite happy that there are some basic standards that exist for my regulators and other equipment, including rebreathers, that I can be confident that things I buy have to meet. Now, the standards themselves may be a long way from perfect, but they are way better than nothing. And they are independent.
I think this is a lot better that relying on hearsay on the Internet, advice from people who may or may not disclose conflict of interest, etc..
Although I get tired of the interminable threads discussing the standards themselves, opinions like you know what, everyone has one. I just hope whoever is employed to write and revise the standards is suitably qualified and does a competent job.
Ps to answer the original question, like many others, I donated 25GBP originally to help get this forum off the ground, so it's worth approx that much to me.
So I am quite happy that there are some basic standards that exist for my regulators and other equipment, including rebreathers, that I can be confident that things I buy have to meet. Now, the standards themselves may be a long way from perfect, but they are way better than nothing. And they are independent.
I think this is a lot better that relying on hearsay on the Internet, advice from people who may or may not disclose conflict of interest, etc..
Although I get tired of the interminable threads discussing the standards themselves, opinions like you know what, everyone has one. I just hope whoever is employed to write and revise the standards is suitably qualified and does a competent job.
Ps to answer the original question, like many others, I donated 25GBP originally to help get this forum off the ground, so it's worth approx that much to me.
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Garth
Tunnel Vision
I can appreciate that but I think we live in two different worlds and have two very different opinions.
Let me know if I am wrong here:
I would rather let the free market determine the quality of the products sold.
You would like an independent source tell you what can be sold.
Am I off there?
Yes the Internet has a lot of crap on it but for the most part you get the general theme.
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Baron015
Member
Nearly right. But in Europe the free marketplace is still a great source of info on quality etc..
Just some effort has been put in to prevent unsafe items ever coming to the marketplace. Esp electrical goods that electrocute you due to faulty wiring or design. Esp children's toys with dangerous sharp parts or toxic components. Esp home furnishings that are extremely flammable.
We can take this for granted in Europe. We don't need several people to be electrocuted, or burned alive, or child deaths, for the marketplace to build up this info. That was how it was in the UK up until about the mid 70's and I can tell you it is better now. Only IMHO obviously.
Of course I still read all the forums, and asked some questions, before I bought my first rebreather. And that was very helpful and informative for me. But of course it was only after owning and diving rebreather that I knew what I didn't know. For example one of those things I didn't know is the the only real way to learn which rebreather you want to buy is to own and use one in the first place. Even with CE and other test results, plus informed opinion and other reviews on the Internet forums, plus the judgement of the free marketplace.
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