HH: Worth Considering

Randy Thornton said:
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As with all people who make it a crusade to crucify a specific manufacturer's goods, there is usually a back story involved and one which they usually don't want to be made public.

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If you want to try and call someone out on a public forum make sure you are ready for the response!

I have no shame, embarrasement, or need of social acceptance. I will freely post and tell of any experience that someone wants to know about.

In regards to my crusade against the almight POS hh electronics, I have a justified reason for my continued hatred. i attempted to not go public with this for a long time, but since you do not know when to keep your fingers off the keyboard and just have to keep pushing my buttons, I might as well just tell the entire world about how crooked and dishonest I felt Kevin was in my last dealing with him.

The following is from a letter that i sent to Kevin:

I don't think all of your equipment is awful at all. There are many people that are using your electronics for many years with no problems or complaints. There are also people who have had a lot of problems with them.

As for items a, b, c, and d - I completely agree and never said anything to the contrary.

There is a very definite reason why I am so vocal about my experiences and problems with hammerhead electronics. I have refrained from posting about it in the past, but now might be a good time to just clear the air about the whole thing.

The last time that I sent my head in to your place with problems, is when I became your arch-enemy. I spoke to both you and Trish on the phone prior to ever sending my head in. I asked both of you to make sure to give me an estimate on the repair cost before any work was done. I never heard a damn thing from anyone until you called me and said that my credit card did not go through (it was expired). You had already done the repairs and were trying to charge me for it without ever giving me any kind of estimate. I did not want to dump a crap load more money into something that was giving me so many problems.

I had alread spoke to Bruce (Shearwater) about the posibility of putting their stuff in my head. This was going to be another option that I was considering.

For some stupid reason, I went ahead and gave you my new card info after you knocked $xxxx off of the $xxxx bill that you first wanted. You told me that you went through all of it, primary, secondary, and a new head. I later heard that you did not touch the secondary.

A side note - I did one dive with it after I got it back to verify that it worked properly prior to selling it. It failed on the very first dive that the new owner did. This is where I heard that the secondary had never been worked on.

My last dealing with Juergensen Marine left a very sour taste that I will not easily, if ever, get over.

Your customer service has always been quit outstanding and you have always went above and beyond to accomodate some very tough schedules. As a person, you are nice and very easy to talk to. I truthfully do wish you all the best in both personal and business ventures, but at the same time i will continue to relate my experiences to others.

You keep making improvements and advances in you equipment and seem to listen to not just your customers but also divers in general. In my opinion some of these are a bit late and you are trying to play catch up now, but it is good that you are advancing. I still think your DIVA should be an industry standard.

I have had problems with other products from several other manufacturers. If any of them treat me in a manner that I believe is unfair or dishonest, I will bash the hell out of them too.

OK, now the whole truth is out for the world to read and maybe you can understand why I post what I do.
 
<sigh>... now that Don is wound up, so am I. Randy, you are new enough to the industry that you probably don't even know why the old timers like Don and myself hold KJ in contempt. Insinuate that there's a back story that we don't want anyone to know about? Uhh... I'm HAPPY to let people know the backstory. I just *usually* don't recite it for the sake of decorum. But your posting is a near-insult to me as well as to Don, so... here's the backstory.

^^^^ I might as well have written the above cited letter myself. In fact, I did write a very similar one and sent it registered mail, return receipt requested, in order to get a response on return of my Mark-15 that had been sent in for repair of defective electronics that had been installed in it when I purchased it "remanufactured" from KJ. Payment for that rebreather ($12,000 by bank wire transfer) was done the day of order, with delivery expected in a month. Seven months later it arrived... broken. Would not pass negative leak tests. Found that the main connector ports had never been tightened, so the rig needed a complete tear-down to make sure nothing else was loose. Electronics seemed to be a bit flaky too... but they lasted for THREE DIVES before going tits-up. So: It was returned for repair. It then was shelved, for... (get this). SEVEN YEARS. Yes, it took seven years to get back a BRAND NEW $12,000 rebreather. I asked for it returned fixed. No reply. Then I asked for it to be returned as-is. I called and called and called. And when I finally sent registered mail Kevin refused to open the envelope because he figured it was me threatening to sue him. Actually it was a nice letter simply asking him to return my phone calls (as he had stopped responding a few YEARS before) and then to return my rebreather.

Now, in the meanwhile, he had managed to LOSE a second Mark-15 that I had sent there for overhaul (stupid me). "Uhh, Dude.. you know I moved from California to Pennsylvania, and, well, Dude... it was there someplace, but man... I can't find it... " And yes, he did finally replace that lost Mark-15 with a brand new one (Thanks Kevin, and it works fine with a Colkan electronics package now).

After the letter was sent he FINALLY sent me my first Mark-15 with the latest and greatest Delrin HH electronics SEVEN YEARS LATER, but guess what? They didn't work. Primary handset display was not working. In absolute disgust I sold it to a friend "as-is" who then spoke to Kevin and was told to openm the handset and (I kid you not) use a wad of chewing gum to wedge the display to the main circuit board so it would work.

Oh, and not for nothing while all of THIS was going on, I secured a CIS Lunar Mk-5p that I wanted overhauled. Sent it in. Got it back $5000 later. Went to do a negative pressure check and it failed. Hmm. Tried again... failed. Investigated: The main "Jesus O-Ring" between the head and the can was cut into two pieces in assembly, and the rig needed to be completely disassembled to repair it. Query to Kevin: "Uhh, Dude... we don't like actually do negative pressure checks after overhaul... sorry man... send it back..."

(Note that both my first mark-15 and the CIS came to me unable to pass a negastive pressure test... seems to be a thread of consistancy here).

And this nearly ten year long saga was done while watching an entire generation of HH handsets fail and need replacement (at the owners cost).

And all of this was more painful because I had spent literally hundreds of hours with him on the phone, discussiong details, discussing how he and were going to remanufacture fifty IDA-71's to incorportate the "soon to be designed HH electronuics package", and became what I thought were friends. In the end he cornholed me the same way that he cornholed Don. And that's a personal thing that can never be made right.

Some of the work is great. Kevin did a superb job of cleaning up old Mark-15's. He made excellent horseshoe boards for them. He managed to build electronics for them when nobody else did. Will Smithers did the boards, and Kevin did the mechanical work. But quality control was nonexistant, "testing" consisted of sending things out for the end user to try. And at the beginning this was OK... we were ALL part of an experiment. The problem is that the industry has migrated from "experimental test divers diving experimental gear" to expectations that life support equipment is actually tested and working before it's sent out. An entire series of generations of HH systems were sent out "prematurely". The result is obvious.


Let's also understand that there is really no "HH Rebreather". There is a Czech Golem rebreather that incorporates HH electronics and (sadly for it) shares the HH name for branding reasons (I bet that Jakub still regrets not calling it a "Golem" rebreather), and thers is the Optima rebreather that incorpirates HH electronics. And there are the retrofit systems for Meg (HammerMeg) and Inspiration, as well as for Mark-15. The good bits of the so-called "Hammerhead Rebreather" are the bits made in Czech. It would be a great rig if it had Shearwater electronics installed.



So, Randy, I know you are a good guy and love the HH... but don't tell me that there's a backstory that I don't want people to know about. I earned my opinion the hard way.


Dave


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husker diver said:
Damn! Never heard stories like that.
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The fact of the matter is that owners of HH controllers who were complaining were essentially blackmailed into not making their complaints public on the internet, the threat being one of retraction of support for their equipment. Add that to the fact that HH was/is a major sponsor on the "other" RB forum and that posts calling attention to the deficiences were removed from the forum... it's not surprising. Money talks.


Dave


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Dave,

I appreciate you referring to me as a new comer to the industry. You're correct, since I have only been diving CCR since 1994 and instructing on them since 1996. I do consider myself a newbie! At my age, any comments I receive referring to me as a "youngster" I will take as a compliment!

I have no knowledge about your business dealings with Kevin or Don's either for that matter. Sorry to hear that both of you feel as though you haven't been treated properly. I also have no knowledge of people being blackmailed to keep quite on internet forums by threats of withholding service. Personally, I have never experienced anything but top notch service from JM as have all of my customers and students as well.

I also respect both you and Don and although I disagree with your comments many times, I look forward with eagerness to read your comments.

My only word of advice to you Dave is that you attempt to keep your comments about different units (including the HH) factual and less emotionally charged. I understand that both you and Don have heartburn with JM. Please understand that rants about JM do little to enhance your own credibility or the credibility of this forum. I think personal attacks against JM or anyone else for that matter are out of place in this type of forum and especially from someone who is a moderator. I would hope that this particular forum doesn't become a personal bully pulpit for moderators to take pot shots.

I will now back out of this conversation. I don't enjoy the mudslinging and apologize if I have inflamed this situation in anyway.

Kind regards,
Randy
 
Dave,

Why don't we do everyone a favor and zip up this thread?

Based on the last replies, I doubt anyone on the fence will lean towards trying a HH, even if 100 satisfied owners chimed in their support at this point. Sorta defeats the purpose of my original post, that being the HH & JM work for me and could work for others.

I'm see no reason to post anything more about the HH on CCRX, as would expect it to end pretty much like this one has. However, I do commend you for holding back on your remarks as long as you did, knowing now what your experience with JM was. Says a lot about you. (And, that's quite a sad story!)

I don't doubt anything you guys have said about Kevin & JM isn't true, but it's very different than my experience which has also been formed over a number of years. I agree that people should know the history of a company before making their buying decisions, but your history and mine obviously aren't the same.

I agree with your earlier statement that went something like "dive the unit that works for you." The HH works for me and I will continue diving it.

Hope to dive with you soon, as you need to see at least one HH on your boat this year!
 
I think that the HH will always be associated with KJ's past quality control performance, and not to it's advantage. With that said, it's "probably" evolved now finally to where it's a viable product. With that said however, with the selection of other products on the market, customers vote with their dollars, and they are fairly rare overall in the field. There's a reason for that. There is excellent competition, and it's a niche product.

Now: To give it fair shrift... I'd dive one for a season and give an honest and fair report on it if one magically appeared at my door. Anything deserves an honest look. I would not spend out of pocket to do so, I'm already well over-invested in HH products without much to show for it.

There's no reason not to post HH related things here, fair and honest evaluations, concerns, and modifications are always of interest. People sell, buy, instruct on, and dive these... we all acknowlage that.

I'll give Kevin credit for something else too: In the seven years it took me to get my Mark-15 back, I became a homebuilder. The lack of having the Mark-15 to dive gave me the opportunity to hone my skills on lathe and milling machine, and with soldering iron and multimeter. I built well over a dozen rigs and by my count inspired another hundred or so to be built. It's unlikely that there would have been a Franken-Rig, or any of the other goodies that came out of the LDSOH during those years, if the Mark-15 had arrived and then worked. And Kevin is not all bad, the industry REALLY owes him credit for some of the very earliest work remanufacturing Mark-15's, and for that he gets my full credit, and I mean that with absolute sincerity. He was a good friend and mentor as I transitioned into "sport diving" rebreathers after a 15 year hiatus after I ended diving them professionally. I spent many interesting hours with him on the phone, and we hashed out some very interesting things. I wish he had met his promises to me and to the others who trusted him. The violation of friendship and trust is likely more difficult that having a Mark-15 go walking off for seven years.



Dave


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Randy Thornton said:
I would hope that this particular forum doesn't become a personal bully pulpit for moderators to take pot shots.
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You might note that in order to write more effectively and remove conflict of interest here, I no longer moderate the forums. I'm a good old fashioned supporting member now, so I can speak my mind like everyone else. You cannot be a critical contributor and also run the editorial areas, and my interest is in technology, not politics. It's a better spot for my strengths.

In any event, I've never been very moderate anyhow... :ignore:


Why don't you box up a beat up HH and send it out for a consumers report test? I'll give it a fair shake and report findings.



Dave


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Dave Sutton said:
You might note that in order to write more effectively and remove conflict of interest here, I no longer moderate the forums. I'm a good old fashioned supporting member now, so I can speak my mind like everyone else. You cannot be a critical contributor and also run the editorial areas, and my interest is in technology, not politics. It's a better spot for my strengths.

In any event, I've never been very moderate anyhow... :ignore:


Why don't you box up a beat up HH and send it out for a consumers report test? I'll give it a fair shake and report findings.



Dave


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Dave,

You might try a raffle? =)

Hehe.(I can't help myself)


Sent from my She-er-water Per-redator!
 
Garth said:
Dave,

You might try a raffle? =)

Hehe.(I can't help myself)


Sent from my She-er-water Per-redator!
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Low hanging fruit gets plucked. Don't let any of this take away from your excellent fortune. The rig will be fine, and the electronics will likely work too. Randy is a good instructor, and you'll live long and smile a lot. It's all good.


Dave


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[Moderation hat on]
There's lots of debate here, which is great. There's nothing wrong with posting personal experiences, and of course they will have some emotional content because we're not all from planet Vulcan like Mr. Spock.

But please let's keep the thread on track - about our own views and experiences of Hammerheads - both pros and cons - rather than debating other forum members.

Thanks,
Janos
[/Moderation hat off]
 
Even through my varied experiences with JM, I would buy another one, I do own 2 Megs now. I had a HH Classic, which was side-mounted and back-mounted at separate times (I converted it to mCCR) that I absolutely loved, but decided I like a solenoid as a parachute. Which I had sent back to JM for conversion to eCCR. The only problem with the new units (Rev C is all I have dealt with), besides what Don already pointed out with the pipe thread into the delrin head, is the cycling PPO2 screen and the size of the handsets. To be fair, o-ring cutouts are already there so you can put an o-ring sealed gland on the Classic and Extreme heads. That info is as per the designer, Jakub.

Their customer service is great, I will give them that. When I had a problem with my HH during my Cave CCR course, before I finished talking to Kevin about the problem, he asked if I just wanted a complete unit overnighted down to me. Thankfully the problem on my unit was just a simple fix and I didn't have to deal with that. And what Dave said about blackmail on "the other rebreather forum" is simple not true. If anyone wants to go look on RBW about the problems I had with my HH, please do. All of my posts are still there, along with other people who had problems with their units.
 
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Having owned and dived 2 inspo's and now the owner of 2 HH CCR's (one classic with Rev C's and one extreme with Rev D's) I can say that I voted with my feet. I had significantly more issues with my inspo's. These included dry solders, temp sick issues, frozen handsets, cracked head and generally manufacturing tolerance issues. By comparison my HH CCR's have worked and worked hard. I have dragged them through deep wrecks, some tightish caves and the reassuring pulse of the DIVA has never skipped a beat. There are definitely issues around JM. They seam to be very busy and turn around times are on the long side. Communication at times requires the picking up of a phone to get clear resolution. The new rev D's are hungrier on battery power than a teenager on grass.

BUT

The build is bullet proof... I have not had any NPT Delrin issues and the units take a pounding and just keep on working. Recently my 6 year old tipped my unit off the work bench onto a tiled floor. Only damage was to a breathing hose that split. When a mate did that to his inspo the case was totaled, the hoses were damaged and the head cracked around the O2 port.

The single biggest demonstrator of why I have stayed on my HH is the number of changes I have made to the unit. I am a compulsive tinkerer and when there's an opportunity for some tinkering I will always take the opportunity. On the HH the only changes have been the lung options (BMCL, TOS, FMCL) and the associated hose routing. By comparison I ended changing nearly every component on the Inspo. The Tupperware approach is not for me and I spent all my tinkering talent attempting to make something robust out of the package. I failed.

I can't comment on others experiences, but mine have been, on balance, good and, on balance, better than I have received from other vendors.

If I were to move from a HH I would probably move to an rEvo.

Later
Nick
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Hh

scunick said:
By comparison I ended changing nearly every component on the Inspo. The Tupperware approach is not for me and I spent all my tinkering talent attempting to make something robust out of the package. I failed.
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Out of the class I have, I have replaced everything except the scrubber and scrubber canister, Oring of death and the spacer and a set of classic lungs now modified to be back mounted. Everything else has been replaced so completely agree with you!

Next step is a Flex or a HH rebreather....
 
w ripley said:
I envy people who say:

They never had a drysuit leak,
They never had a reg fail,
They never had their electronics or lights fail,
They never had an issue with their rebreather.

Probably because I'm hard on my equipment, that sort of luck has passed me by, or as some would say, "I've made my own luck." But given the way I dive, I'm pretty happy with my gear, especially my Hammerhead.

It's proven to:
Be a robust machine, in that I can bang it up hard in a rocky tunnel - many, many times on the same dive - and it keeps going,
Have a scrubber I personally know will go 11 hours,
Have electronic & deco redundancy I can count on, even if one handset does go out,
Have a visual/vibrating DIVA that seriously alerts if I'm on the threshold of being hypoxic/hyperoxic (+ auto adds O2 if hypoxic),
Have strong support from its builder, Juergensen Marine.

From time-to-time I read a thread where someone bashes this or that about the HH, and agree that as a machine it's not perfect. Still, it's the unit I'm putting on my back when I'm about to jump in for a 5-7+ hour dive. Sure I'm going to be watching it, but going in I have the confidence that I can count on it to get me safely out of the water. That's about all I can ask for from these things we call rebreathers.

The HH may not be the right unit for you and the way you dive, but if you like long dives & are hard on your gear like me, then it should be on your list of ones to consider. Just saying.
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No question Bill the HH is a strong and robust unit and should be on anyones short list but don't be envious of people who say they have "never had any issues" because the people that say that are either lying or don't do big dives (and I know you do big dives regularly and I've seen your gear..........).

You're not someone who babies gear.......LOL


Cheers,

Jon
 
Randy Thornton said:
Dave,

I appreciate you referring to me as a new comer to the industry. You're correct, since I have only been diving CCR since 1994 and instructing on them since 1996. I do consider myself a newbie! At my age, any comments I receive referring to me as a "youngster" I will take as a compliment!

I have no knowledge about your business dealings with Kevin or Don's either for that matter. Sorry to hear that both of you feel as though you haven't been treated properly. I also have no knowledge of people being blackmailed to keep quite on internet forums by threats of withholding service. Personally, I have never experienced anything but top notch service from JM as have all of my customers and students as well.

I also respect both you and Don and although I disagree with your comments many times, I look forward with eagerness to read your comments.

My only word of advice to you Dave is that you attempt to keep your comments about different units (including the HH) factual and less emotionally charged. I understand that both you and Don have heartburn with JM. Please understand that rants about JM do little to enhance your own credibility or the credibility of this forum. I think personal attacks against JM or anyone else for that matter are out of place in this type of forum and especially from someone who is a moderator. I would hope that this particular forum doesn't become a personal bully pulpit for moderators to take pot shots.

I will now back out of this conversation. I don't enjoy the mudslinging and apologize if I have inflamed this situation in anyway.

Kind regards,
Randy
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Not a day over 29 Randy.....not a day.

I was nice meeting you.

Cheers,

Jon
 
After returning from a two month trip to cave country I met 4 HH divers, 3 of the 4 units failed to the point they were not suitable for use and the 4th had a few issues.....

The HH is a good unit but its numerous issues need to be handled once and for all.

For Kevin to complain and threaten people who share negative experiences on line is shameful.

I think several of the issues that they have could be solved if a professional that understands (and dives) rebreathers handled much of the interaction with customers.
 
Hello,

I owned a new HH Extreme with Rev D for around six months. The rebreather was out of order for more than 3 1/2 months with a lot of emails and other messages to the manufacturer - It was the poorest customer service I ever got so far.

Solution: The rebreather has been sold

My personal lesson learned: Never ever use a product from this manufacturer again.

I don't want to start an ongoing discussion -- I made my personal decision based on my personal experience with this product - end of story.
 
Dinspiration said:
Hello,

I owned a new HH Extreme with Rev D for around six months. The rebreather was out of order for more than 3 1/2 months with a lot of emails and other messages to the manufacturer - It was the poorest customer service I ever got so far.

Solution: The rebreather has been sold

My personal lesson learned: Never ever use a product from this manufacturer again.

I don't want to start an ongoing discussion -- I made my personal decision based on my personal experience with this product - end of story.
Click to expand...

Can you provide the reason for the rebreather being out of service?

Thanks


... and when you breath from it you instantly feel better about life. [The Hammerhead]
 
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