GUE CCR, It's OFFICIAL

[Mark Chase]

How is it unbalanced with the 7s? Too heavy overall? Too head or tail heavy? Other?

At one point I debated putting 2x lp45s on my Meg (I already have the 45s) but the cost of the lola valves, manifold, and frame to just try it out put me off. I don't know the metric size of the 45s, perhaps 6.3L or so, they are just a little shorter than the lp50s/7Ls. Think they'd be "unbalanced" as well?

The unit feels heavy on your back, it tends to role you when you lean to one side and it didnt trim flat for me

Hears my 2 X 7s rig

Note the black bar at the bottom to trim out the tank valves The unit is already neg for me without the weight but I had to have it and have it that low down to trim the valves

 

[scubainchicago]

The unit feels heavy on your back, it tends to role you when you lean to one side and it didnt trim flat for me

Hears my 2 X 7s rig

Note the black bar at the bottom to trim out the tank valves The unit is already neg for me without the weight but I had to have it and have it that low down to trim the valves

I just have a small tail weight because I needed some extra lead. Other than that the rig stays level and just needs body positioning to dial in the rest of the way. A wing with more lift aft also helps.

 

[Mr fish]

I just have a small tail weight because I needed some extra lead. Other than that the rig stays level and just needs body positioning to dial in the rest of the way. A wing with more lift aft also helps.

sorry quoted the wrong post ,


Mark
i take it the pony/side can is the o2 feed ,

i remember you posting this set up be4, can i ask , what depth was that aetup used in , also whats in the big bail tins , looks ok to me as long as you have a dill/ bailout of 18/35 , as once you start droping the ppo2 s and uping the H, it stops working un less your humping more cans ,

its maybe ok for 60mins at 50m at best

 

[Mark Chase]

sorry quoted the wrong post ,


Mark
i take it the pony/side can is the o2 feed ,

i remember you posting this set up be4, can i ask , what depth was that aetup used in , also whats in the big bail tins , looks ok to me as long as you have a dill/ bailout of 18/35 , as once you start droping the ppo2 s and uping the H, it stops working un less your humping more cans ,

its maybe ok for 60mins at 50m at best

The post was called the Dover Rig as it was set up so I could fit on the small dive boat with 12 other divers and not have to worry about clipping on bailout stages. Yes the 3ltr is my 02 and it had a reg on it.


Dover is 50m max

It sparked much controvasy as i considered having diferent mixes in each tank so i could bail to a 7ltr of 18/45 and have another 7ltr of 50% to deco out on.

Hovever i also had a manifold on the rig with the idea of running two tanks of dill as back mounted deep bailout so just like GUE 14ltrs of dill off board 02 and off board intermediate bailout

However when i dived this rig i foiund it felt heavy in the water, it roled you over due to the weight on your back and it was very heavy to move to and from the boat and climbing a ladder.

I binned the whole concept and went back to the Much much nicer to dive 3s and 2X7s for bailout or 2X80s

ATB

Mark

 

[Mr fish]

The post was called the Dover Rig as it was set up so I could fit on the small dive boat with 12 other divers and not have to worry about clipping on bailout stages. Yes the 3ltr is my 02 and it had a reg on it.


Dover is 50m max

It sparked much controvasy as i considered having diferent mixes in each tank so i could bail to a 7ltr of 18/45 and have another 7ltr of 50% to deco out on.

Hovever i also had a manifold on the rig with the idea of running two tanks of dill as back mounted deep bailout so just like GUE 14ltrs of dill off board 02 and off board intermediate bailout

However when i dived this rig i foiund it felt heavy in the water, it roled you over due to the weight on your back and it was very heavy to move to and from the boat and climbing a ladder.

I binned the whole concept and went back to the Much much nicer to dive 3s and 2X7s for bailout or 2X80s

ATB

Mark

Mark are you saying you had a intermediate bailout with that set up , ie 3 7l and the pony of o2 ,

edit
just seen the 18/45 , so you would be needing a intermedate as 18/45 would be shite for deco , and the pony just wont cut it ,

tell me how much of that 15l would you use to get to the 50% about half a ponys worth i bet , so whats the rest for ,

 

[PeterN]

Mark are you saying you had a intermediate bailout with that set up , ie 3 7l and the pony of o2 ,

edit
just seen the 18/45 , so you would be needing a intermedate as 18/45 would be shite for deco , and the pony just wont cut it ,

tell me how much of that 15l would you use to get to the 50% about half a ponys worth i bet , so whats the rest for ,

Those big manifolded tanks...

I Can't work out a situation where there is an advantage. Divide them up and put a deep gas in one and a good deco gas in the other and you are going to be out of the water much sooner if you have to bail. Go further and take them off your back and put them under your arms with smaller rig mounted tanks and the the whole thing is going to be much simpler and much more efficient to swim with.

A 2.4 lt dil tank lasts at least two dives so I see no advantage to hauling around a weekend's worth of gas with me at all times.

Possibly the one saving grace with tank valves facing up is that this rig would not be ass heavy like my rig. But that is it. What am I missing? When is it an advantage to have a shed load of the same gas on your back like that?

Seems like some guys who have been diving doubles for too long just feel the need to continue to suffer.

Peter

 

[Mark Chase]

Mark are you saying you had a intermediate bailout with that set up , ie 3 7l and the pony of o2 ,

edit
just seen the 18/45 , so you would be needing a intermedate as 18/45 would be shite for deco , and the pony just wont cut it ,

tell me how much of that 15l would you use to get to the 50% about half a ponys worth i bet , so whats the rest for ,

For deep stuff manifolded 14ltrs of deep bailout

FOr shalow stuff isolate the two tanks and one deep bailout 18/45 and the other something like 50%


Seamed like a plan but it never took off.

ATB

Mark

 

[Mark Chase]

Those big manifolded tanks...

I Can't work out a situation where there is an advantage. Divide them up and put a deep gas in one and a good deco gas in the other and you are going to be out of the water much sooner if you have to bail. Go further and take them off your back and put them under your arms with smaller rig mounted tanks and the the whole thing is going to be much simpler and much more efficient to swim with.

A 2.4 lt dil tank lasts at least two dives so I see no advantage to hauling around a weekend's worth of gas with me at all times.

Possibly the one saving grace with tank valves facing up is that this rig would not be ass heavy like my rig. But that is it. What am I missing? When is it an advantage to have a shed load of the same gas on your back like that?

Seems like some guys who have been diving doubles for too long just feel the need to continue to suffer.

Peter

I sort of agree untill you get to 80m+ then having 14ltrs of deep bailout on your back and two side slung 80s makes a lot of sense.

Reely deep it makes even more sense

Last deep dive i did was 90m two 3s on the JJ and three 80s slung + a drop tank + a dec station.

It worked OK but I would have prefered the 2 X 7s on my back and just two side slung but stripping and rebuilding the JJ just for that dive vwas more hassell / risk than the benifit I felt it would bring

ATB

Mark

 

[PeterN]

I sort of agree untill you get to 80m+ then having 14ltrs of deep bailout on your back and two side slung 80s makes a lot of sense.

Reely deep it makes even more sense

Last deep dive i did was 90m two 3s on the JJ and three 80s slung + a drop tank + a dec station.

It worked OK but I would have prefered the 2 X 7s on my back and just two side slung but stripping and rebuilding the JJ just for that dive vwas more hassell / risk than the benifit I felt it would bring

ATB

Mark

Thanks.

Peter

 

[Mr fish]

Mark

im sure your right , at some point the 15l of dill will hit a sweet spot, the rest of the time ist just more gas to hump,

 

[Bobjr]

Mark

im sure your right , at some point the 15l of dill will hit a sweet spot, the rest of the time ist just more gas to hump,

I'd rather have gas on me in water wishing it was on boat than other way around

 

[Hanssing]

I'd rather have gas on me in water wishing it was on boat than other way around

OK, I just cant make sense of that sentence - but I think I get the geist

But then where do you stop - why not D10, D12, D15, D18 ?
I have understand that the DIR-crowd and others need a special setup, but I have allways wondered why you didnt take a step back and look at a CCR like this:

A CCR can be equated with a very big single-tank with a single regulator and perfect mix, and this goes for mCCR, eCCR hCCR etc.

Then you build your (DIR) system from that premis. Where you would dive with just doubles for redundancy you add a bail-out-stage, where you would bring staged backgas you bring staged bailout etc etc.
Team requirements for gas-switch sort of dictates a buddy display like ourborous, i.e. a light visible to buddies indicating PPO in lifesupporting range.
I have allways thought people overthougt these setups - its a big likely to fail singel-regulator-single-tank. Just bring the redundancy you need, and keep your system simple and roboust.

As much as a like the idea of a lot of backgas, I just love my CCR shallow with no bailout, except from the small tanks onboard (3l Dil+O2), dragging around D7-steel + O2 + Suit, yikes.

But I commend GUE for not doing somthing as stupid as the original UTD nonsense

Hanssing

 

[Mark Chase]

Mark

im sure your right , at some point the 15l of dill will hit a sweet spot, the rest of the time ist just more gas to hump,

Absolutly right thats why i binned the idea

\\That and the fact i didnt like nicking the top off of my bailout gas to dive the CCR

Simple thing to manage a weeks diving with six thre ltr tanks and never compromise on bailout gas volume. Not so simple to keep topping up the 7s

I am perfictly happy jumping in with 100bar in a 3ltr dill to do a 80m dive but less happy when my 250bar bailout fill is down to 210bar

ATB

Mark

 

[emmbee]

Absolutly right thats why i binned the idea

\\That and the fact i didnt like nicking the top off of my bailout gas to dive the CCR

Simple thing to manage a weeks diving with six thre ltr tanks and never compromise on bailout gas volume. Not so simple to keep topping up the 7s

I am perfictly happy jumping in with 100bar in a 3ltr dill to do a 80m dive but less happy when my 250bar bailout fill is down to 210bar

ATB

Mark

Thinking as I type here, sorry about that, but if you want to put bailout on your back, why not put the shallow stuff there? Say a 50% and an O2.

You always have gas you can breathe on the surface or in the shallows, and loads of it.
You can still remove the deep cylinder(s) like on a normal setup, so no extra hassle there.
You can still rotate your dil 3Ls normally.
You could run the wing or the suit from the 50%.
Your bailout is not hobbled by questionable gases that you need more of to do the same ascent.
And you only need enough reserve negative buoyancy to handle the nitrox consumed, as opposed to that plus the now depleted deep bailout on your back.

Cheers,

Matthieu

 

[Mark Chase]

Thinking as I type here, sorry about that, but if you want to put bailout on your back, why not put the shallow stuff there? Say a 50% and an O2.

You always have gas you can breathe on the surface or in the shallows, and loads of it.
You can still remove the deep cylinder(s) like on a normal setup, so no extra hassle there.
You can still rotate your dil 3Ls normally.
You could run the wing or the suit from the 50%.
Your bailout is not hobbled by questionable gases that you need more of to do the same ascent.
And you only need enough reserve negative buoyancy to handle the nitrox consumed, as opposed to that plus the now depleted deep bailout on your back.

Cheers,

Matthieu

Because IMHO with CCR diving if you need a large volume on any OC gas it will be the deep one.

A: Getting back to the shot line deep will cost a lot of gas

B: If your stressed or C02 hit you will pile through your deep gas before you can get your head in gear & shalow to get rid of the C02 narcosis

C: Gas time presure deep is where you will monumentaly screw up with bad decision making

D: Deep is most likley where you will be either alone or with a buddy too nervouse (because hes deep) to be of any help. Once shalow on the deco station I am usualy surounded by OC gas and divers who dont need it.


SO if i am to have 14ltrs of anything it will be my deep gas

ATB

Mark

 

[Mr fish]

Because IMHO with CCR diving if you need a large volume on any OC gas it will be the deep one.

A: Getting back to the shot line deep will cost a lot of gas

B: If your stressed or C02 hit you will pile through your deep gas before you can get your head in gear & shalow to get rid of the C02 narcosis

C: Gas time presure deep is where you will monumentaly screw up with bad decision making

D: Deep is most likley where you will be either alone or with a buddy too nervouse (because hes deep) to be of any help. Once shalow on the deco station I am usualy surounded by OC gas and divers who dont need it.


SO if i am to have 14ltrs of anything it will be my deep gas

ATB

Mark

with you on the deep bail out but id rather have two cylinders with two diff'rent ppo2 and H in them . i want to get out not be put in a holding patton till my buddy rally round to help , i just see the 14l as to small or to big and all ways the wrong gas, unless your on 21/35 and a pony of o2 , lol twins come to mind

no getting out of what you need for bailout , its just how you hump it and what gas you hump , and mybe how much you want to clime out with ,

seems to me some are planning gas round there BOV,S and long hose rather that planning for getting out of the water , as first choice ,,

each to his own , iv no problem with what ever a diver thinks is best ,

 

[cathal]

This bailout configuration to me appears to have been designed with caves in mind i.e. where your not doing a typical square dive profile and therefore in a bailout situation the 14l @ 300bar will get you a fair bit back up the line by itself without having to worry about the extra deco penalties your incurring by breathing the dil.
As has already been pointed out here in this thread this system does not work so well on a deep wreck dive. One other thing, the entire unit assembled together is a bit of a beast to kit up with on a hard deck boat in large seas. I was diving with a buddy last year of Malin who initially came up with this configuration at the start of the season but later on reverted back to the standard 3L Dil bottles with weight being one of the factors i.e. I think the rig assembled comes in somewhere between 40-45kg. He found that trying to get kitted up with a heavy rig, then having to walk across a heaving deck with bailouts clipped on was extremely difficult.

Cathal

 

[Mr fish]

This bailout configuration to me appears to have been designed with caves in mind i.e. where your not doing a typical square dive profile and therefore in a bailout situation the 14l @ 300bar will get you a fair bit back up the line by itself without having to worry about the extra deco penalties your incurring by breathing the dil.
As has already been pointed out here in this thread this system does not work so well on a deep wreck dive. One other thing, the entire unit assembled together is a bit of a beast to kit up with on a hard deck boat in large seas. I was diving with a buddy last year of Malin who initially came up with this configuration at the start of the season but later on reverted back to the standard 3L Dil bottles with weight being one of the factors i.e. I think the rig assembled comes in somewhere between 40-45kg. He found that trying to get kitted up with a heavy rig, then having to walk across a heaving deck with bailouts clipped on was extremely difficult.

Cathal

cave diving , well id just drop a shit load of deco gas and then hump a shit load of deep dill on my dpv lol that works for me , 14l x team of 3 , that should llast ,

 

[Mark Chase]

with you on the deep bail out but id rather have two cylinders with two diff'rent ppo2 and H in them . i want to get out not be put in a holding patton till my buddy rally round to help , i just see the 14l as to small or to big and all ways the wrong gas, unless your on 21/35 and a pony of o2 , lol twins come to mind

no getting out of what you need for bailout , its just how you hump it and what gas you hump , and mybe how much you want to clime out with ,

seems to me some are planning gas round there BOV,S and long hose rather that planning for getting out of the water , as first choice ,,

each to his own , iv no problem with what ever a diver thinks is best ,

I am with you on this which is one of the reasions why I binned the idea

All my deep stuff i have a steel 10ltr or Al80 blown to the max with deep gas. IE 250bar in the steel and 230bar in the Ali

If i am diving three bailouts + drop tank then my bottom mix will defo be a AL80 blown to the max with something thats floaty in it

Not that thats anything to do with the question at hand of "why dive two 7s dill back gas?"

The point is, the system is perfictly workable AND many non GUE divers do it this way. So why complain about it?

My principle concern is why lose the easy access inverted valves and instead have the old hard to reach head position valves.


I'd realy hate to dive a CCR feathering the 02 on a GUE rig. Must be damed uncomfortable

Also isolating becomes an issue again due to valve role off. So 02 would need to be fulley open (not the 1//2 turn for quick isolation I use) and shutting down a runaway dill would be slower. Therefore have more risk of a boyent ascent & 02 tox

TBH I see many more down sides to this rig than I do benifits but saying that id put up with it in the same way id put up with the one piece harnes.

On my JJ training day I was told catagoricly that a one piece harnesses was no good on the JJ because you needed to keep the unit high up on your back to get the proper WOB. They said this was simply not possable with a one piece.

I tend to agree

I use a one piece with Harper loops and once on the bottom I hoik the unit up on my back and redo the waste band to keep it there. Works a charm

If i had the unit loose enough to alloww donning and doffing with a one piece the it would defo be lower on my back.

ATB

Mark

 

[rjack]

This bailout configuration to me appears to have been designed with caves in mind i.e. where your not doing a typical square dive profile and therefore in a bailout situation the 14l @ 300bar will get you a fair bit back up the line by itself without having to worry about the extra deco penalties your incurring by breathing the dil.
As has already been pointed out here in this thread this system does not work so well on a deep wreck dive. One other thing, the entire unit assembled together is a bit of a beast to kit up with on a hard deck boat in large seas. I was diving with a buddy last year of Malin who initially came up with this configuration at the start of the season but later on reverted back to the standard 3L Dil bottles with weight being one of the factors i.e. I think the rig assembled comes in somewhere between 40-45kg. He found that trying to get kitted up with a heavy rig, then having to walk across a heaving deck with bailouts clipped on was extremely difficult.

Cathal

Funny, I thought it looked like a much better rig than mine (large sidemounted BO for cave diving) for boat wreck diving to say ~60m. Just clip on 2x 5.5L deco bottles and you're good to splash. A little bit deeper and its a 5.5L of O2 and a 11L of 50% and you are still probably good to 70m with ~30min bottom times, perhaps adding a 5.5L of 35/25 for the longer bottom times.

For cave diving 2x 7L is actually pretty dinky bailout IMHO. So you have to start adding ali 11Ls (al80s or al72s) and end up with a ridiculous number of them pretty quick. Sure you can drop them as you go, but you have to know the drop points well and for exploration diving sprinkling ali11Ls throughout the cave makes for a lot of setup. Not to mention huffing them in.

Clipping on sidemounted BO on a boat or when its hanging on tag lines on the side of the boat royally sucks. But for caves its a way easier way to carry a shedload of BO. I have 2x 15.5L tanks (hp130s in imperial) for bailout sidemounted before I start adding 11Ls. I don't need some monkey on my back wondering if I am spacing out the dropped 11Ls too far as I try to navigate, lay line, and survey.