GUE CCR, It's OFFICIAL

[Mark Chase]

Mark - as per usual you have all these preconceived ideas formed from snippets of information you have picked up from various and usually out of date sources It would certainly not be my intent to beast you and mkae you look stupid.

There are alot of skills that one could use in CCR diving learned from T2. T2 prepares you to make an ascent with bottle rotations and switches - all of which will be useful for a CCR diver that bails out. Fine tuning body position and buoyancy are important also. Lets be honest CCR diving is easy (as is any diving - put this in your mouth and breath normally) - but being prepared to handle things when it goes wrong is what takes all the effort.

Graham

Graham i compleetly agree that bottle rotation and bailout ascents are a necessary skill for CCR

Where we disagree is i feel the ONLY place to lern such skills in ON a CCR

I would take great pleasure in doing your tec 2 day I feel i have earnt the right to say id do an honest aprasel of it. I am more than willing to admit i was worng in the face of evidance to suport your view


I sugest once the course is finished you offer up your best student And ill ask him to do the same bottle rotation ascent on my JJ CCR

You see i feel 90%$ confident i can do it OC dispite not diving that way for over 10 years but I also feel prety confident your best student couldent do it on CCR

At the point i quit OC I felt prety shit hot at such things and then I starped on the CCR and i was a novice all over again


I personaly feel the boyancy controle needed to do such skills is easy on OC but hard on CCR. Especialy shallow

This is because fine tuning boyancy with your lungs is easy and doing it when breathing in and out makes sod all diferance is not.

Arguably OC bailout is just OC? which is fine but unless your units totaly flooded you still need to maintain the loop. Preferabley a breathable loop. It gives an extra level of task loading and an additional boyancy sorce to control

Lerning this from day one is a bit like doing DIRF instead of PADI OW. You dont have to unlern skills

ATB

Mark

 

[Bobjr]

Graham i compleetly agree that bottle rotation and bailout ascents are a necessary skill for CCR

Where we disagree is i feel the ONLY place to lern such skills in ON a CCR

I would take great pleasure in doing your tec 2 day I feel i have earnt the right to say id do an honest aprasel of it. I am more than willing to admit i was worng in the face of evidance to suport your view


I sugest once the course is finished you offer up your best student And ill ask him to do the same bottle rotation ascent on my JJ CCR

You see i feel 90%$ confident i can do it OC dispite not diving that way for over 10 years but I also feel prety confident your best student couldent do it on CCR

At the point i quit OC I felt prety shit hot at such things and then I starped on the CCR and i was a novice all over again


I personaly feel the boyancy controle needed to do such skills is easy on OC but hard on CCR. Especialy shallow

This is because fine tuning boyancy with your lungs is easy and doing it when breathing in and out makes sod all diferance is not.

Arguably OC bailout is just OC? which is fine but unless your units totaly flooded you still need to maintain the loop. Preferabley a breathable loop. It gives an extra level of task loading and an additional boyancy sorce to control

Lerning this from day one is a bit like doing DIRF instead of PADI OW. You dont have to unlern skills

ATB

Mark

I don't find buoyancy on CCR any more easy or difficult than OC just different. As for switches and bottle rotations - I don't bother with those on CCR, generally , unless something has gone wrong

We are both discussing the same thing essentially - which are skills to ascend from (lets say) 70m with significant decompression. Where you learn them is not that important to me - I agree you can learn this on CCR but equally you can learn them on OC. There are pros and cons to both approaches. GUEs current RB strategy is to do this after you've become a capable OC tech diver (our T2) - which means you have the OC skills to easily conduct easily conduct an OC ascent in worse case which is RB bailout. A problem with having entry level tech diver (our T1) as the entry point to CCR (it was this when I did CCR in 99 - ie I had to do Advanced Nitrox first) is that in a RB you can quickly get into situations you don't have the skills to dive out of.

 

[Janos]

I don't find buoyancy on CCR any more easy or difficult than OC just different. As for switches and bottle rotations - I don't bother with those on CCR, generally , unless something has gone wrong

We are both discussing the same thing essentially - which are skills to ascend from (lets say) 70m with significant decompression. Where you learn them is not that important to me - I agree you can learn this on CCR but equally you can learn them on OC. There are pros and cons to both approaches. GUEs current RB strategy is to do this after you've become a capable OC tech diver (our T2) - which means you have the OC skills to easily conduct easily conduct an OC ascent in worse case which is RB bailout. A problem with having entry level tech diver (our T1) as the entry point to CCR (it was this when I did CCR in 99 - ie I had to do Advanced Nitrox first) is that in a RB you can quickly get into situations you don't have the skills to dive out of.

I'd love to do a GUE CCR course too. I think I'd enjoy it and I'm sure I'd learn something. But I'm reluctant to go back to twinset diving. I'm also not convinced by the OOG protocols on GUE-CCR either.

But I agree with Mark - the biggest step is between OC and CC. Not between T1 and T2.

However, while I don't see the sense in it from a training perspective, I suspect GUE are coming at it more from a dive management perspective.

Janos

 

[cardysnr]

I'd love to do a GUE CCR course too. I think I'd enjoy it and I'm sure I'd learn something. But I'm reluctant to go back to twinset diving. I'm also not convinced by the OOG protocols on GUE-CCR either.

But I agree with Mark - the biggest step is between OC and CC. Not between T1 and T2.

However, while I don't see the sense in it from a training perspective, I suspect GUE are coming at it more from a dive management perspective.

Janos

I'd too like to do a GUE course on my JJ however I cannot align the rational of tech 2 entry requirements ................Mark has a valid point...

 

[Mark Chase]

I just open my eyes wide and shake my head when people tell me CCR boyancy is just as easy or not much diferent from OC?

I just did a 30m OC dive 20mins ago and I dont think I bothered touching the BCD once just did it all on breath control. The dive guide looked at me sideways when I said I wanted 2kg not the 12kg he offered me but it was perfict for the shorts and T shirt rig i was diving

I have been diving CCR for 11 years and still can onlt dreem of thet level of ease with boyancy contol

I can do the skills and hover thing but it takes effort a lot of effort.

When I have had a lay off from CCR I need to work back up to free ascent skill levels.

OC over a year since my last OC dive I pissed it dive one.

I have no doubt you can demonstrate good CCR boyancy skills, but to say its just as easy as OC? I call bullshit on that.

ATB

Mark

 

[cathal]

"I don't find buoyancy on CCR any more easy or difficult than OC just different."

Not sure how you can say Buoyancy control in O.C is just different than on a CCR. I for one found it much more difficult managing 3 sources of buoyancy on a CCR i.e. suit, wing and lungs instead of 2 on O.C. Especially in the shallows.
All the best

Cathal

 

[scubainchicago]

I agree that CCR buoyancy is just different, but probably easier than OC. I can upload a profile or two from either the course or some dives immediately afterwards, but a 15cm/6" window is a no brainer @1-2M/ 3-5'.

 

[Mr fish]

fantastic

 

[Hyper-limits]

About a year ago a friend who is a GUE instructor told me that they were thinking of introducing the CCR course after Tec 1. I guess they changed their mind and decided to introduce it after tec 2. Which is too bad for many who would be interested but the cost of going back to OC and the training would be the same price as a new CCR.

Dan, why did GUE choice the JJ over other unit?

Thanks

Al

 

[scubainchicago]

About a year ago a friend who is a GUE instructor told me that they were thinking of introducing the CCR course after Tec 1. I guess they changed their mind and decided to introduce it after tec 2. Which is too bad for many who would be interested but the cost of going back to OC and the training would be the same price as a new CCR.

Dan, why did GUE choice the JJ over other unit?

Thanks

Al

Just to throw it out there, GUE diving/ protocols mesh great within a group that has been trained identically. It's not to say GUE divers will or don't dive with other people trained by other agencies. Heck, my regular dive buddy only has GUE-F, but tech and cave certs from other agencies. We dive enough and he's asked enough questions that our diving is very much on the same page. I personally know other people just like him who have crossed over at the T/2, C/2 level. My point is, the courses only make sense to invest in if your intention is to dive with like minded divers.

As for the choice in picking the JJ, that's way above my head. I'm just a lowly GUE student who took a course and submitted this review with some personal opinions added in.

 

[Mark Chase]

Just to throw it out there, GUE diving/ protocols mesh great within a group that has been trained identically. It's not to say GUE divers will or don't dive with other people trained by other agencies. Heck, my regular dive buddy only has GUE-F, but tech and cave certs from other agencies. We dive enough and he's asked enough questions that our diving is very much on the same page. I personally know other people just like him who have crossed over at the T/2, C/2 level. My point is, the courses only make sense to invest in if your intention is to dive with like minded divers.

As for the choice in picking the JJ, that's way above my head. I'm just a lowly GUE student who took a course and submitted this review with some personal opinions added in.

We are like minded divers

I dont need the cert card I already have several including CCR Cave, so no advantage there either.

I see the ninja badge as a bit of a shortcomming not something to strive for, so my only reasion to want to do GUE CCR is I am a like minded diver

As hard as that may be for some to accept


I have done DIRF old stile and new stile Fundies and i am willing to do Tec1 so surely that answers your identical training concerns

ATB

Mark

 

[nadwidny]

I agree that CCR buoyancy is just different, but probably easier than OC. I can upload a profile or two from either the course or some dives immediately afterwards, but a 15cm/6" window is a no brainer @1-2M/ 3-5'.

After many years on OC and 6 years on CCR, I can say that I differ with you and have found that OC buoyancy is much easier that CCR. I much prefer diving CCR over OC but there are times, (like pretty much everytime I'm filming and need to hold a solid position) when I wish I was on OC. Likewise when trying to hold a stop in blue water without a line. Way easier on OC.

 

[Bobjr]

I just open my eyes wide and shake my head when people tell me CCR boyancy is just as easy or not much diferent from OC?

I just did a 30m OC dive 20mins ago and I dont think I bothered touching the BCD once just did it all on breath control. The dive guide looked at me sideways when I said I wanted 2kg not the 12kg he offered me but it was perfict for the shorts and T shirt rig i was diving

I have been diving CCR for 11 years and still can onlt dreem of thet level of ease with boyancy contol

I can do the skills and hover thing but it takes effort a lot of effort.

When I have had a lay off from CCR I need to work back up to free ascent skill levels.

OC over a year since my last OC dive I pissed it dive one.

I have no doubt you can demonstrate good CCR boyancy skills, but to say its just as easy as OC? I call bullshit on that.

ATB

Mark

I can see from your post exactly why you're finding buoyancy more challenging and why every time you go back to OC it resets your ccr buoyancy. I am pretty sure I can see exactly what problems you would have with a midwater skills either OC or CCR

 

[PeterN]

I can see from your post exactly why you're finding buoyancy more challenging and why every time you go back to OC it resets your ccr buoyancy. I am pretty sure I can see exactly what problems you would have with a midwater skills either OC or CCR

Wow! Just wow!

Is that hubris? Possibly just near terminal narcissism. I do tend to get them mixed up.

I did some boat dives recently with a group of over the top enthusiastic GUE divers. No problems getting along or holding stops with them. I was on my CCR rig and they were on massive doubles. I don't buy their protocols, they seem more tribal than technical, but they seem harmless enough. A few extra stops and a bunch of hand signals delivered such emphasis as to be the underwater equivalent of shouting, did no harm and serve to keep me on my game.

On this trip, but not diving with me, was the local GUE guru diving the new JJ set up. We were blown off the dive we wanted to do. While we were talking up our options he commented as to him being quite happy to be in relatively shallow water as he was now challenged with his buoyancy skills on th new rig.

This fellow trains GUE instructors.

Admitting to the laws of physics and the certain fact that oc buoyancy is simpler to master is not a sign weakness. Nor does this mean one is having a problem!

After a summer of oc side mount cave exploring my dive partner and I spent a week on a bigger project that required the rebreathers and scooters and stages etc. we both noted that it took a few dives to get with the program. No surprise really.

A friend is about to become a GUE instructor. The only thing that stands between me taking a fundies course with her is the expensive ferry ride that lies between us. I know I would enjoy and benifit from the experience. Despite nearly thirty years of trying, I have a lousy frog kick. She could help me with that.

I am curious as to what the protocals for diving the GUE CCR rig with hypoxic gases is. The rig I saw had two large tanks manifolded together with a second stage on a bungy. These large tanks are both dil and BO. I can't see that as a practical set up for deeper diving.

Peter

 

[Mark Chase]

I can see from your post exactly why you're finding buoyancy more challenging and why every time you go back to OC it resets your ccr buoyancy. I am pretty sure I can see exactly what problems you would have with a midwater skills either OC or CCR

I am looking forward to my day with you even more now

Never said i was doing it right 9if you saying what i am doing with lung capacity is wrong) just said i was pissing it on OC and 11 years in still working at it on CCR

ATB

Mark

 

[scubainchicago]

The rig I saw had two large tanks manifolded together with a second stage on a bungy. These large tanks are both dil and BO. I can't see that as a practical set up for deeper diving.

Peter

The numbers work quite well with BO gases to the next OC switch. The configuration has and continues to be used on 300' + dives. Just this past year, 3 very high profile projects with great historical significance have been featured in various mainstream publications. While I'm not privy to releasing any formulas or materials, the thought process and implementation has been very in depth.

 

[Tompaspain]

I find it perfectly.
If you dont go below 160bar on a dubbel 7L then you still have a full bail out on the back.
My last travel i filled my dubbel 7L to 240bar and did 5 dives in between 75-50m without the need to refill them.
Dive was wreck and dive times in beetwen 2-3houers in total.
I.e they didend drop below 160bar.
On top of that you use/cary one stage/bail out less on the dive as you have it all ready at your back.
Down side, a bit more hevay to get out of the water after the dive.

 

[Mr fish]

The numbers work quite well with BO gases to the next OC switch. The configuration has and continues to be used on 300' + dives. Just this past year, 3 very high profile projects with great historical significance have been featured in various mainstream publications. While I'm not privy to releasing any formulas or materials, the thought process and implementation has been very in depth.

twin ali 80s of 12/70 or what ever gas you guys use at 90m is not much use for deco , so i take it your humping a few more over size cylinders for deco ,
ps are you still comming of the loop to hand off D long hose ,

also what with the .9 be4 you jump in , and what up with 1

 

[scubainchicago]

twin ali 80s of 12/70 or what ever gas you guys use at 90m is not much use for deco , so i take it your humping a few more over size cylinders for deco ,
ps are you still comming of the loop to hand off D long hose ,

also what with the .9 be4 you jump in , and what up with 1

Here's an article with 2 of 10 being a group of GUE divers conducting research.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/top-ten-underwater-discoveries-2014-002516

#9 was at a depth approaching 420' (130m) with BG in twin D7/LP50's (probably bumped up to 150cf of gas). 190' bottle, 70' & o2. I believe there were 12 divers who dove in a couple of staged teams to make the listed artifact recovery.

I don't have many details of #1. I know it was two GUE instructors with JJ units in MX. I believe the depth was 180'-200' (55-60m) in a cave environment. More than likely a staged o2 and 70' bottle.

Having three deco bottles is not very task loading at the T/2 level. It's part of the reason I personally believe it should be a requirement to have T/2 before one gets in over their head with a RB capable of doing some serious dives.

As for long hose donation, which seems to get a lot of attention for no reason really, the RB diver has to have 2 catastrophic failures. One failure of the RB requiring coming off the loop, and the other being a total loss of BG. Deploying the long hose really shouldn't happen, but if it did, it doesn't take any more time than on OC, especially because you should have seen it coming long before.

I'm not sure I understand your last question, would you mind rephrasing it a bit

Dan

 

[Mark Chase]

Here's an article with 2 of 10 being a group of GUE divers conducting research.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/top-ten-underwater-discoveries-2014-002516

#9 was at a depth approaching 420' (130m) with BG in twin D7/LP50's (probably bumped up to 150cf of gas). 190' bottle, 70' & o2. I believe there were 12 divers who dove in a couple of staged teams to make the listed artifact recovery.

I don't have many details of #1. I know it was two GUE instructors with JJ units in MX. I believe the depth was 180'-200' (55-60m) in a cave environment. More than likely a staged o2 and 70' bottle.

Having three deco bottles is not very task loading at the T/2 level. It's part of the reason I personally believe it should be a requirement to have T/2 before one gets in over their head with a RB capable of doing some serious dives.

As for long hose donation, which seems to get a lot of attention for no reason really, the RB diver has to have 2 catastrophic failures. One failure of the RB requiring coming off the loop, and the other being a total loss of BG. Deploying the long hose really shouldn't happen, but if it did, it doesn't take any more time than on OC, especially because you should have seen it coming long before.

I'm not sure I understand your last question, would you mind rephrasing it a bit

Dan

Handling three stage bottles for a simple gas switch on OC is totaly diferent to handling three stage bottles whilst managing a failure on a CCR

Which is why I feel if you want to lern how to handle stage bottles on a CCR practice it on a CCR?

Having Tec2 level skills does not empower you to do BIG dives on a CCR.

Once you switch to CCR its a whole new ball game so you start with the basics and build up slowley

I dont give a dam how good you think you were on OC if you jump in with a CCR on what amounts to a four tin bailout dive without developing skills on the CCR first your being reckless.

Seems fairley logical to me