DeepUnderground
Member
Not if your doing a nice multilevel nice
GUE CCR, It's OFFICIAL
- Thread starter scubainchicago
- Start date
Yes that was the answer I was looking for
I suppose the computer coming with the JJ is only there to validate the parameters you have planned before the dive, right?
For hypo dil, do you plug it in the unit at surface or just at 6m. Or do you go OC from/down to 6m?
Thanks for your time
Jale
scubainchicago
Member
True, most of my diving is deeper square profile Great Lakes wreck diving. I haven't been spoiled yet
Yes that was the answer I was looking for
I suppose the computer coming with the JJ is only there to validate the parameters you have planned before the dive, right?
For hypo dil, do you plug it in the unit at surface or just at 6m. Or do you go OC from/down to 6m?
Thanks for your time
Jale
Tables first, computer for validation of dive plan. MAV to .9 before entry and watch ppO2's on decent.
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
My god i never thaught id hear thease words from a GUE diver. i used to get slagged off rotton by the DIR mob for saying such things
I am genuinly pleased GUE have done the bloddy obvious and gone CCR at last
I am however bitterley disapointed they didnt offer DIRF Tec1 then CCR
I have DIRF already and I would have been willing to do Tec1 before doing CCR but no way and i wasting 10000s on pointless equipment and diving on what must surley now be a redundent level of diveing.
I know Tec2 level divers who strugle to keep their dives up due to the daunting cost of OC trimix diving and the lack of 10 rich people to fill a GUE boat for a TEC 2 dive
Tec 2 is the GUE equivlent of TDIs extended range.
Its a dinosaur
I didnt think GUE would embrace CCR before i packed it all in, but they have. Sadly ill have to wait untill they realise Tec2 is a waste of time before I can do what i have wanted to do for 10 years and do a GUE CCR course
ATB
Mark
scubainchicago
Member
Hi Mark,
The reasoning behind CCR for GUE is for deep exploration or where logistics make gas logistics unreasonable. While I might receive backlash for saying this, Tech 1 is such a low bar for what the unit is capable of. I can rack up 30 minutes of deco @ 100' using o2 and 32% backgas doing a simple C2 dive. If when shit hits the fan at 100m on CCR, muscle memory is going to need to kick in and bottle rotations and other protocols need to take place. In Tech 2 you start to get a much better grip on testing deco profiles to see what ones body is capable of.
All this to say, The diving this machine is meant for is way beyond Tech 1 and I think they have picked an excellent place to introduce the CCR training. Again, these are my opinions, but the majority of people I dive with at the Tech 2 level would agree.
BTW TDI's extended range isn't even close to T2/, T/2+. That's a deep air course which wouldn't be very well received
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I rather like the JJ in the GUE configuration. I have several buddies diving them after the GUE course.
But taking an OC trimix course to 200+ft in order to take GUE MOD1 (for lack of a better term) is rather silly. Some of us do actually have GUE-F, Tech1, Cave1 and Cave2 already (plus other certs, like OC normoxic mix and as many deco gases as we want) and are doing long logistically challenging but not terribly deep dives already. Places where hauling in doubles or even sidemount cylinders of sufficient quantity doesn't work.
Perhaps if I had money to throw away I'd look into taking the GUE CCR course (on a rental unit?) through a cross-over - not easy but people occasionally do it. But as built, the unit is too heavy and lacks modularity/packability for my cave diving. For giant striding off a boat on wrecks it looks faboo though.
But taking an OC trimix course to 200+ft in order to take GUE MOD1 (for lack of a better term) is rather silly. Some of us do actually have GUE-F, Tech1, Cave1 and Cave2 already (plus other certs, like OC normoxic mix and as many deco gases as we want) and are doing long logistically challenging but not terribly deep dives already. Places where hauling in doubles or even sidemount cylinders of sufficient quantity doesn't work.
Perhaps if I had money to throw away I'd look into taking the GUE CCR course (on a rental unit?) through a cross-over - not easy but people occasionally do it. But as built, the unit is too heavy and lacks modularity/packability for my cave diving. For giant striding off a boat on wrecks it looks faboo though.
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
Hi Mark,
The reasoning behind CCR for GUE is for deep exploration or where logistics make gas logistics unreasonable. While I might receive backlash for saying this, Tech 1 is such a low bar for what the unit is capable of. I can rack up 30 minutes of deco @ 100' using o2 and 32% backgas doing a simple C2 dive. If when shit hits the fan at 100m on CCR, muscle memory is going to need to kick in and bottle rotations and other protocols need to take place. In Tech 2 you start to get a much better grip on testing deco profiles to see what ones body is capable of.
All this to say, The diving this machine is meant for is way beyond Tech 1 and I think they have picked an excellent place to introduce the CCR training. Again, these are my opinions, but the majority of people I dive with at the Tech 2 level would agree.
BTW TDI's extended range isn't even close to T2/, T/2+. That's a deep air course which wouldn't be very well received
Sorry the opinions of self-selecting bunch of divers don***8217;t mean a lot to me. They chose to do Tec2 rather than quit GUE and go CCR QED they are already heavily bias.
In truth Most of the UK DIR crowd went CCR 8-10 years ago. You lost some good and very active divers. I know because I dived CCR with some of them like John Thraves Paul Dawkins and Dave Robins
Gas logistics of OC trimix make diving OC past 50m pointless and bloody expensive. My 2p would be expand the envelope of Tec1 and then move to CCR.
Tec2 OC doesn***8217;t really help teach you anything about ^your deco tolerance^ on CCR it***8217;s a totally different gas profile for decompression so why waste time on it.
Bottle management and planning are totally different as well so again I say why?
I offered the Deep Air extended range option as comparison to Tec2 for very good reason.
There are places where 50m on air make sense. Reef dives in the red sea for example. I can***8217;t say id be too desperate for mix on such dives. oc Tec 2 equally has odd situations where the limitations of oc are worth it. Multi tank oc dives in shallow Mexico caves for example.
Very unique situations
For the most part deep air extended range is dead not in a small way thanks to ccr making helium so affordable what the point in doing deep air.
In exactly the same way 50m+ oc is dead you said it yourself CCR offers more options QED its safer and I firmly believe it is if it***8217;s done right.
ATB
Mark
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scubainchicago
Member
I measured the cross section of the can and bottles. The 3L o2 bottle adds about one and a half inches (4cm) over a set of HP130/LP104s. There is a slinder 1.6L tank that shaves off the height difference and makes the unit capable of going anywhere a twinset of HP100's (7.25" tanks) will take you. I've also seen people use AL40's for bailout in remote places where LP50's are not common. It would be up to the user to take a set of the Lola valves with to keep the manifold. As for weighting, the standard GUE setup put me just a hair more than neutral and I had to add 4lbs (1.8Kg) to be in my comfort threshold weight wise. Saying that to say the weight would need to go somewhere, and on my rig works well for me in backmount cave and open water wreck diving.
As for the T2 threshold and how the CCR Course stands now, it translates over to T2/T2+ limits. The course would need to broken into a MOD1/MOD2 type course, but I couldn't see that happening in the near future.
Mark
The simple fact is that in order to do 70m + you need to have all your shit in one sock. That can be achieved by doing T2 first and then CCR or by doing an intro level CCR course and then a proper 70m+ CCR course. Just different ways to skin a cat.
Graham
And yet some prominent and normal GUE divers are using it almost exclusively for all their diving whether exploration or pleasure dives off their local boat.
Took this long for CCR to be embraced and will probably take just as long until they all admit they love it and should have done it years ago!
And the muscle memory thing is bollox imho. I have done 1 OC dive in well over a year now and almost 100hours on my unit. I took the old twinset out and my valve shutdown drill was probably the slickest it had ever been. You dont forget how to do things just by changing but.... whatever floats your boat!
oya
Member
I'm sort of fascinated by the logic of: "Learn it all in OC, then move to CC only when it's a CC dive."
I've got a lot of OC dives. I trust my OC skill set and muscle memory completely.
I do not have a lot of CC hours. I still drill myself like mad and work on perfecting muscle memory.
So why in the name of all things groovy would I take out the rebreather only for the deepest and most challenging dives? Wouldn't it make more sense to dive it all but exclusively, getting comfortable where it's shallow, slightly less dangerous, and infinitely harder to dive? Then when it's time to really stretch the tool, whatever started to hiss, burble, boom, or have nothing go wrong at all, I'd be prepared for it.
And I don't buy the, "It's configured to build on the existing OC configuration," either. It's a rebreather. It's different. The failures and solutions and everything are different. To borrow a metaphor a bit: you can redesign the entire console to look exactly like your reliable twin-prop crop-duster back home or like a 747 passenger jet... You're still flying a helicopter. Accept that it's a helicopter and get really good at that.
I adore the GUE philosophy. Followed the ideas all through OC despite having never taken Fundies. I want to, have wanted to for a long time, but for the costs of that class I could pay for a trip to cave country for me and my wife. So I daydream about taking Fundies while moving further and further away from the likelihood of ever doing so. I'll be comfortable and confident on my rebreather without ever getting to be DIR.
Well, I don't have anything by the approved brand anyway. Bummer.
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I've got a lot of OC dives. I trust my OC skill set and muscle memory completely.
I do not have a lot of CC hours. I still drill myself like mad and work on perfecting muscle memory.
So why in the name of all things groovy would I take out the rebreather only for the deepest and most challenging dives? Wouldn't it make more sense to dive it all but exclusively, getting comfortable where it's shallow, slightly less dangerous, and infinitely harder to dive? Then when it's time to really stretch the tool, whatever started to hiss, burble, boom, or have nothing go wrong at all, I'd be prepared for it.
And I don't buy the, "It's configured to build on the existing OC configuration," either. It's a rebreather. It's different. The failures and solutions and everything are different. To borrow a metaphor a bit: you can redesign the entire console to look exactly like your reliable twin-prop crop-duster back home or like a 747 passenger jet... You're still flying a helicopter. Accept that it's a helicopter and get really good at that.
I adore the GUE philosophy. Followed the ideas all through OC despite having never taken Fundies. I want to, have wanted to for a long time, but for the costs of that class I could pay for a trip to cave country for me and my wife. So I daydream about taking Fundies while moving further and further away from the likelihood of ever doing so. I'll be comfortable and confident on my rebreather without ever getting to be DIR.
Well, I don't have anything by the approved brand anyway. Bummer.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
At a glance this would apear to be a rational argument but on closer inspection i dont see it
50m twin set single deco gas on relativly inexpensive 21/35 & 50% would be a good introduction to stage handling decompresion planning and decompresion dive planning so I still feel Twc 1 is a valid course and many will be happy to stop right there
As soon as you hang that second deco tank on the rig its a CCR dive
CCR you need bottom bailout and deco gas. With the GUE system you have bottom gas on your back so with two tanks you have an additional two deco tanks I am asuming 50 & 100%
Now you are pushing deco and there was no point lurning your physical tolerance on OC because the gas profile on CCR is diferent QED diferent tolerance
You learn multi tank handling skills on the one piece of kit where you need multi tanks. A CCRv Dive
No one in theor right mind who is qualified CCR will chose to do a 60m two hour+ dive on OC over CCR. The only possable justification in my mind is the cost of getting your CCR unit to site and that argument falls flat with GUE who allways said cost should not affect the decision to dive in the safest possable way.
The argument with CCR is the build up of knowladge from day one of passing the course. Yo cant ONLY use CCR on extreem dives and expect to stay unit proficient. I swore blind id do X amount of OC a year but in truth I just stick the CCR on for everything except single tank travel diving.
A proper way to progress would be Tec 1 to 50m 30mins deco
CCR for 30mins Deco + 50m+
Theres no need for a Mod 2 for CCR in GUE as youd be diving trimix from day one. Mod 2/3 only exists in CCR via TDI for example as it introduces helium into the dive.
I would like to see 100 hours to 60m max 2 hours max deco then unlimited or 100m unlimited deco thereafter
THERE ARE NO NEW SKILLS to lern for a 100m dive that you didnt lern for a 50m dive
Its just deeper.
ALL GUE CCR skills should anticipate hypoxic gas. I asume GUE dont do non Hypoxic scinarios and Hypoxic scinarios
Standardised trainig for standardsied reactions and all that.
But hay at least they accepted CCR. I was actualy disapointed they went ECCR I thaught it was a step too far. MCCR using needle valve would have been my choice for an electronics shy organistaion like GUE
What i can see now is all the Tec2 qualified divers who are still keen to dive deep doing a CCR course and doing everything past 40m on a CCR
I am not so sure that people will want to do the transitional Tec2 befor CCR so you will loose more active divers. If not it will be a well healed few whoi do Tec 2 then go CCR ASAP after and sod the expence
I know there are divers like me who would cross over to GUE and as i said id be willing to suffer Tec 1 cost but Tec2 is a bridge too far even for me
ATB
Mark
Tell you what Mark - we'll do two dives. One in T1 configuration (single bottle) and one in T2 (3 bottles) configuration and you can tell me afterwards about the lack of differences. I am sorry you learned nothing between 50 and 100m courses - this in my opinion is a massive failing of the instruction you received
You are welcome to join on a preT2 dive I have in UK - see if you're ready for T2
Graham
mick4707
Member
GUE have to reinvent the wheel, it***8217;s in their interest. Why have bog stock JJ as their rebreather ***8211; you can do that course anywhere for a lot less. They have to change it so they can still sell the courses. The DIR/GUE thing is outdated, you would have to have rocks in your head to use any helium in OC today.
scubainchicago
Member
This has to be one of the most misinformed posts I've read yet:
I didn't start this thread to start baseless attacks. This thread is not an attemp to change anyones way of diving. It was meant to be informative and have civil discussion, which has been very positive so far.
Dan
If you're talking about a safe appoach to CCR diving with appropriate bailout, yes.
Please reread my original post and do the cost comparison yourself and tell me if you come up with the same numbers.
Making Tech 2 a requirement sure opens the flood gates for huge money making opportunities (*sarcasm off).
There are quite a few places where helium costs are low enough it makes the cost of investing in a rebreather a poor investment.
I didn't start this thread to start baseless attacks. This thread is not an attemp to change anyones way of diving. It was meant to be informative and have civil discussion, which has been very positive so far.
Dan
Michael Thornton
Rebreather Enthusiast
Although I don't dive in the GUE configuration or agree with some things they do I appreciate your review and recap of the course. As an instructor I am always interested in reviewing other approaches and whether I do it the same or not it is informative and educational.
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Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
Tell you what Mark - we'll do two dives. One in T1 configuration (single bottle) and one in T2 (3 bottles) configuration and you can tell me afterwards about the lack of differences. I am sorry you learned nothing between 50 and 100m courses - this in my opinion is a massive failing of the instruction you received
You are welcome to join on a preT2 dive I have in UK - see if you're ready for T2
Graham
Perfictly happy to do this Graham dispite the fact I have only done 1 DIRF course and 3 single tank dives on OC in the least 5 years but you miss the point totaly
There is no need for Tec2 OC skills as they should all be lernt on CCR as OC past 50m is redundant
Its redundent for two reasions:
1: Because yoiu need to maintain skills on CCR and you cant do this doing 2-3 extreem dives a year you need to do a reasnoble number of dives and to do that your going to AT LEAST do everything past Nitrox level on your CCR.
2: Why pay for the gas if you have a CCR
Asd for Mod 3? I did intro to trimix OC TDI and felt the 100m cert was a waste of time as id already lernt what i needed on intro to trimix. I did Mod 1 CCR asnd felt Mod3 was a waste of time because I had already lernd about trimix on TDI OC. So much do the Mod 3 course used the same training manual I had used for OC and it was the same exam paper???????
10 years ago so it may have changed now
I am sure you can beast me and make me look silly on a course but I doubt Id be any worse than any other student on a Tec1 course
You what to demonstrate how much id lern on a OC tec 2 course?
Fine but it wont help with diving my CCR and thats all I and most CCR qualified divers will be diving on tec 2 depth dives
But yes id be very pleased tp do it just for the giggle
ATB
Mark
Mark Chase
ATB=AlwaysTalkingBollocks
Progression non GUE would be OW cert Nitrox Cert TDI Advanced Nitrox & Decompresion procedures, CCR Mod1, CCR Mod3
I have never dived there.
I pay massive amounts for Helium in the UK and much much moore when i travel
I could buy a CCR for the helium cost of a weeks 70 diving 3 hour run time in egypt on OC
I am very gratfull for your post and hope you see what i am saying as constructive criticisum rather than an attack
I relay do want to do GUE CCR
ATB
Mark
Mark - as per usual you have all these preconceived ideas formed from snippets of information you have picked up from various and usually out of date sources
It would certainly not be my intent to beast you and mkae you look stupid.There are alot of skills that one could use in CCR diving learned from T2. T2 prepares you to make an ascent with bottle rotations and switches - all of which will be useful for a CCR diver that bails out. Fine tuning body position and buoyancy are important also. Lets be honest CCR diving is easy (as is any diving - put this in your mouth and breath normally) - but being prepared to handle things when it goes wrong is what takes all the effort.
Graham