First breather

Matt1634

Matt1634

New Member
Hello all,

Been lurking here for a few months and trying to absorb as much information as possible following my mod 1 which I took on a school inspiration. I had always planned to buy one new after the course but like a plank I proposed and apparently weddings are expensive business.

To cut a long story short I'm now looking at used, my budget is around 2k. I have seen some classics (the original buddy ones) going for around £500 with a lot of work needed. I was tempted on the basis that if I sent it to ap and it needed a total refurb I could still stay in budget and would have a model totally overhauled. Although it troubles me that the unit is ultimately 15 years old...

Should I be concerned about unit age if it has had a full factory top down bottom up rebuild? Should I be looking at other models?

If so what age and state of service should be considered, ie a cheap unit with the knowledge I will send to factory anyway in anticipation of buying with some problems which will be rectified or a recently serviced unit that is unknown to me?

Given that I have only just completed Mod1 I am reluctant to pay another amount for a crossover which seems like a money grab, is this the general feeling or am i misguided and a crossover course is important?

In terms of use I will only be using the rebreather up to 40m for the foreseeable future, ie a year until after wedding where I will be completing mod 2 and 3, getting a new bit of kit with some toys on it, so resale value would be good for current purchase.

I dive with a fully unlocked vr3 which I am comfortable using so just a basic, reliable unit would be ideal, I don't need software. I am meticulous about service and will do the basics myself, although anything with electric will be given to the factory as it's not my area of expertise!*

Thanks in advance

Matt

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
 
Erm thanks.... Any chance you could be a little more specific?

Cheers matt

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
 
Decision #1 was to buy an Inspo. Decision #2 was to propose marriage. If I get any more specific, I will have to sleep with one eye open at all times.
 
Matt1634 said:
Given that I have only just completed Mod1 I am reluctant to pay another amount for a crossover which seems like a money grab, is this the general feeling or am i misguided and a crossover course is important?

In terms of use I will only be using the rebreather up to 40m for the foreseeable future, ie a year until after wedding where I will be completing mod 2 and 3, getting a new bit of kit with some toys on it, so resale value would be good for current purchase.
Click to expand...

Matt, regardless of which unit you end up with, it is absolutely critical that you get unit specific training on that particular unit. Even on some units which have very similar operation, there are just too many unique issues which require specific knowledge and training. IMHO, training is not an area to skimp on. The margin for error is deadly to say the least.

Kind regards,
Randy
 
Thanks randy I appreciate that, have heard a lot of muttering about agencies making up qualifications to justify more training fees and having only dived the inspo was keen to get an informed opinion.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
 
Inspo classic as a shell unit for £500 is fine. Just check out the price of two handsets and a new loom and i suspect you will soon be up arround 2k. Rest of the unit is solid enough but a bit of a bitch to travel with. Personaly I think units without a BOV and Heads up display are dangersous to dive but thats just me.

On the other hand for £2500 you can buy a fulley trimix enabled Vision of my mate Pete with HUD inline deco etc etc. Just fill with gas an go diveing.


Not much out there in the ECCR range for 2k that id consider worth looking at. Most of the other good units will cost a lot more

MCCR theres the KISS & rEvo


CCR is CCR is CCR if you cant figure out how to dive a diferent one from reading the manual theres something wrong with that unit. I had Inspo MO1 & 3 and dived KISS, Hammer Head, rEvo, JJ CCRs without a crossover course. In the end I was offered a 1 day event on the JJ so I did that but no frigging way was i compleetly redoing Mod1 just because my 02 add button was over the sholder and not on the frigging counterlung

The standard joke is thers no cross over between the Inspo Classic and the Vision

I'd argue that the Vision is about a diferent from the Inspo Classic as the Hammer head, Meg or rEvo was but the one thing I respect Martin Parker for above all else is he didnt insist on a crossover.

ATB

Mark
 
Randy Thornton said:
Matt, regardless of which unit you end up with, it is absolutely critical that you get unit specific training on that particular unit. Even on some units which have very similar operation, there are just too many unique issues which require specific knowledge and training. IMHO, training is not an area to skimp on. The margin for error is deadly to say the least.

Kind regards,
Randy
Click to expand...




Soooo why no cross over between a Classic and a Vision?

What are these critical diferances? I only have 11 years on CCR and I am buggerd if I can find any so far?

My units must be strange.

Basicly, how you dive it is you maintain a PP02 within your chosen diveing range by either electronic voting logic or manual injection in addition to a 02 bleed valve.

Units without an 02 bleed valve are trained to be run on manual injection in Mod 1 so it exactly the same principle.

OK the buttons are in a diferent place and the hand sets can have diferent menue functions but if you think thats bad you should see the diferance between my BMW and my Jaguar??? Perhaps i need a cross over every time i buy a new car. I just baught a quad bike??? Aparently I can drive it on my car driving licence that macheen is VERY diferent from my car but amazingly I am just allowed to read the manual and then go out on the public highway with it.

ATB

Mark
 
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Mark thanks for taking the time to provide such a comprehensive response.

I was reading the thread only yesterday where you explained your rationale behind hud and a couple of week ago read the co2, think you can bail out? thread with great interest.

Really good to hear the opposing thoughts randy and yourself hold about the crossover, having read the manual for the early vision and earlier classic there really wasn't a great deal of variation - the software and a couple of 'toys' as options.

My thought process was I have owned many dive computers, from starting with a depth timer, recreation ndl guidance right up to Trimix ccr enabled. I poured over the instructions each time. Tested them on dry land extensively and started any dive with new equipment on the basis I was a learner again and adjusted my sights accordingly to make sure I was comfortable with any risk.

Same goes for equipment, I trained with trunks and a single 10l in Egypt - the majority of my diving is uk, open water, in a drysuit with twin 12ls. I didn't do any additional certs for drysuit, low vis, twinset. But when I changed something I approached the dive as though I was a rookie again to mitigate risk - that was why I had got to the conclusion that a crossover may be a 'money grab' as opposed to fundamental. But again big thanks to you both for explaining your views, that was quite literally the point of me asking.

How old is your mates vision? Or can you send me contact info on a pm? Thanks Mark!

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
 
Matt1634 said:
Mark thanks for taking the time to provide such a comprehensive response.

I was reading the thread only yesterday where you explained your rationale behind hud and a couple of week ago read the co2, think you can bail out? thread with great interest.

Really good to hear the opposing thoughts randy and yourself hold about the crossover, having read the manual for the early vision and earlier classic there really wasn't a great deal of variation - the software and a couple of 'toys' as options.

My thought process was I have owned many dive computers, from starting with a depth timer, recreation ndl guidance right up to Trimix ccr enabled. I poured over the instructions each time. Tested them on dry land extensively and started any dive with new equipment on the basis I was a learner again and adjusted my sights accordingly to make sure I was comfortable with any risk.

Same goes for equipment, I trained with trunks and a single 10l in Egypt - the majority of my diving is uk, open water, in a drysuit with twin 12ls. I didn't do any additional certs for drysuit, low vis, twinset. But when I changed something I approached the dive as though I was a rookie again to mitigate risk - that was why I had got to the conclusion that a crossover may be a 'money grab' as opposed to fundamental. But again big thanks to you both for explaining your views, that was quite literally the point of me asking.

How old is your mates vision? Or can you send me contact info on a pm? Thanks Mark!

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Forgive my angry rant, Randy is one of the good guys on here but I have a real bug up my backside about having to resit mod one everytime I decide to switch units.


I did my CCR cave course in Mexico on a KISS with no crosover cert from the Inspo Classic and checked with the instructor who said the course demanded you have suitable experiance on the unit? so he let it slide.

Ultimatly all quality training is good and I have in the past done courses like DIRF which offered nothing in the way of advancement for me, but I just wanted to do it.

I just want it to be an option not a requirement.

ATB

Mark
 
Much as I've enjoyed my first unit, an inspo classic, I'm a tinkerer. Much of the enjoyment I've had out of this unit stems from the challenge of keeping the blessed scrotum of a thing diveable.

They're cheap, they're good fun in the shed. But I'd recommend a vision instead for anyone who just wants to dive.
 
Matt1634 said:
following my mod 1 which I took on a school inspiration. I had always planned to buy one new after the course but like a plank I proposed and apparently weddings are expensive business.

To cut a long story short I'm now looking at used, my budget is around 2k.
Click to expand...

If you are Mod1 inspo then I would got for one of them, especially with your budget.

I don't think you have enough in the pot for a Vision, so you're left with a Classic. I'd look for one with at least the ABS case (post January 1999), Apeks 2nd stages (post May 1999) and backlit handsets (post June 2000) as they are going to be the older but better ones. You should get one with a recent service for £1500, probably from the early/mid 2000's.

If you can get one for £500 without service then you could risk it as a grand gets you a full lid service (£180) and new electronics (£180 per side, plus £180 per side if cracked)/loom (£180)/solenoid (£80).

To be honest there is not much else to swap - everything can be changed if needed later on - CL's complete are £250. MAV's £100 a pair. Mouthpiece £212 etc.

I wouldn't pay a grand for a unit that had not been recently serviced, though.

Matt.
 
Mark Chase said:
The standard joke is thers no cross over between the Inspo Classic and the Vision
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Never heard the joke? I agree that most folks don't seem to have a clue how the dual-electronics work and actually a one day cross over (worth about £100, I would think) would be worthwhile.

Or just RTFM.

Matt.
 
Mark Chase said:
Forgive my angry rant, Randy is one of the good guys on here but I have a real bug up my backside about having to resit mod one everytime I decide to switch units.


I did my CCR cave course in Mexico on a KISS with no crosover cert from the Inspo Classic and checked with the instructor who said the course demanded you have suitable experiance on the unit? so he let it slide.

Ultimatly all quality training is good and I have in the past done courses like DIRF which offered nothing in the way of advancement for me, but I just wanted to do it.

I just want it to be an option not a requirement.

ATB

Mark
Click to expand...

Mark, I don't think anyone is suggesting that a Mod 1 should or would have to be retaken. In most cases, a simple unit specific crossover is all that is necessary. The basics of CCR related science, techniques, physiology, physics etc, etc. doesn't change from unit to unit. What does change are the unit specific protocols, procedures, and subtle differences in skills between units. Obviously, some people have an easier time learning and internalizing the differences between units, but this is certainly not the norm. After having taught on numerous CCR units over the years and having taught dozens and dozens of crossovers, I can honestly say that the thought of most people trying to do this on their own without some level of crossover instruction scares me to death. (myself included!)

Sure, it is possible through reading and experimentation to pick up a lot of the differences, but is the cost savings of a 3 day crossover really worth the risk to the average CCR diver? Personally, I think the risk is too great for most people.

Warm regards,
Randy
 
Randy Thornton said:
Mark, I don't think anyone is suggesting that a Mod 1 should or would have to be retaken. In most cases, a simple unit specific crossover is all that is necessary. The basics of CCR related science, techniques, physiology, physics etc, etc. doesn't change from unit to unit. What does change are the unit specific protocols, procedures, and subtle differences in skills between units. Obviously, some people have an easier time learning and internalizing the differences between units, but this is certainly not the norm. After having taught on numerous CCR units over the years and having taught dozens and dozens of crossovers, I can honestly say that the thought of most people trying to do this on their own without some level of crossover instruction scares me to death. (myself included!)

Sure, it is possible through reading and experimentation to pick up a lot of the differences, but is the cost savings of a 3 day crossover really worth the risk to the average CCR diver? Personally, I think the risk is too great for most people.

Warm regards,
Randy
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I think the reluctance, Randy, is instructors want to charge £500-£700 for cross-overs and basically there isn't anything of substance to teach for the most part. Divers are tight-arses, never forget that!

Cheers
Matt.
 
Matt1634 said:
Should I be concerned about unit age if it has had a full factory top down bottom up rebuild? Should I be looking at other models?
Click to expand...

I dive a unit that is at least 35 years old, probably closer to 40. Anyone who dives a Mk15.x series is diving something that is going to be 20+ years old and they're still as good (if not better) than most units out there.

I dont know much about the Inspo but from diving an old unit, you can keep a well built rebreather running forever with good maintenance.

Personally, I'd buy a very basic unit with no bells and whistles. Particularly as you aren't breaking 40m. Learn the fundamentals of diving rebreathers. I'd budget for a BOV but in my opinion HUDs and computers wired to the cells are luxuries. If you cant dive without them then I'd say there was something amiss. Know your ppo2, it is that simple. I'd also consider a splash of helium in the dil, rebreathers put more demand on your brain than oc.

matt said:
I think the reluctance, Randy, is instructors want to charge £500-£700 for cross-overs and basically there isn't anything of substance to teach for the most part. Divers are tight-arses, never forget that!

Cheers
Matt.
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I dont think it is even being a tight arse, for me it's about not having someone take the piss.

I think there is an element of how risk is viewed too. Instructors will tell you a crossover is essential whereas a user may say helpful. Personally, I enjoyed working out how best to run my unit. Someone walked me through the set up and I had manuals on both units. But on both my Mk15 and CK the fun was in working out how they dived. I really enjoyed exploring what each unit did and I think I learned a lot more.
 
matt said:
I think the reluctance, Randy, is instructors want to charge £500-£700 for cross-overs and basically there isn't anything of substance to teach for the most part. Divers are tight-arses, never forget that!

Cheers
Matt.
Click to expand...
If instructors just wnt ahead and told you:
Read the Manual
Take a buddy along for the first dives with the new unit
Have fun learning the minor differences

They wouln't be able to either ear or have a roof over their heads.
Sleeping in the bed of a 25 year old pickup sucks when it is raining or snowing too.

Instructors need paying students and the various rebreather training organizations have understood this from the beginning of the millenium.
Of course an instructor won't let you on his charted boat unless you have whatever certification that he wants to see or is willing to teach you on the trip.
That way some instuctor has had you as a cash cow on whatever RB that you take along.

The cheapest way is to spend several hours creating a website for a nonexistant (actually newly formed) Zimbabwe/Myanmar technical dive training association, that lists RB training for almost every rebreather since the old Siebe units from the 19th century up to training on the Liberty, and everything in between.
Just make sure not to use the words "Factory Approved".;)
Once you get away from 3 and 4 letter organization names, nobody can keep track of them all:lol:

Michael
 
Why go to Zimbabwe? I remember looking at the IANTD website and seeing the number of instructors with ratings on 15-20 units. Really?

A friend of mine used one for his Mk15.5 crossover and taught him to assemble the loop reversed.
 
I have a friend who owned a dive charter buisiness. He callled me up and said he had this guy on the boat was diving rebreather and wanted a rebreather guy to buddy up with. He was telling me about the thousands of dives this guy had as a navy seal or whatever. When he told me the name alarm bells went off. I knew this guy from online forums and from a personal dealing with him. I also knew this guy had approached an instructor friend of mine looking for a x-over class. He said he had been trained by so and so on another unit and wanted to x-over to the meg. When my friend called so and so about this guy he said he had never heard of him and did not train him on anything. SO my friend declined and said he would get the word out that he was a liar.
So this guy is on my friend's boat, I warned him to be careful with this guy but didn't go into much more detail. I declined to buddy up with him. Next day I get a call from my friend, they had to take this guy to the hospital. He was rescued at the surface in full resiratory arrest after taking a massive CO2 hit on his rebreather. He survived after being placed on hyperbaric O2 for a number of hours. It turns out he had purchased a unit on ebay. Not trained and unaware this unit has the early DSVs recalled due to mushroom valve problems (an instructor would have picked that up) he tried to dive the unit with a completely compromised mushroom valve. This individual has likely hung up his fins or at least his keyboard since I haven't heard from him since the accident.
My point is there are some who likely don't need any training and there are those who think they don't need training. Who decides?
 
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