Electronic vs manual CCR

[Janos]

Would it be a good idea to flash red at random times, but somehow indicate that the flash was only to keep you on your toes, not an actual loop issue?

Nice idea, but it would just train you to ignore red flashes.

I must confess that I have run the unit below 1.0 in shallow (10m) dives, I think I'll stop doing this.

Janos

 

[Mark Chase]

Would it be a good idea to flash red at random times, but somehow indicate that the flash was only to keep you on your toes, not an actual loop issue?

Possably but remeber to pack spare underpants as a sudden red does focus the mind and loosen the sphincter.

Being a little more serious i think it would train you out of taking a red seriously.

ATB

Mark

 

[lolwhat]

Agreed on the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" aspect of random reds. It'd be better to do it only every once in a long while, I suppose.

 

[erikradstrom]

You don't, actually. You look "past it" most of the time.

First, these devices are not HUD devices, they are Peripheral Field Displays. You normally look "past" or "around" them and need to consciously "code shift" your observational point to use them.

Second, any "constant stimulus device" in the visual field will very quickly be ignored by your brain.

The fallacy is that somehow "you cannot ignore a HUD". Nothing could be further from the truth.


Dave


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I can´t say youre wrong Dave but I do know I notice all changes on my HUD or what you called it.

It may be that I have trained to look at it, I don´t know but I do it. I also look at the controller often.

 

[Dave Sutton]

The other thing it teaches you is how often and when you need more 02. You begin to gain an instinct for when you need to inject. I can honestly say once attuned to my MCCR I injected out of habit more than consciously needing to check my PP02 and adjust it.

All good points, Mark.

It becomes even easier as you tune-into using a rig as a mCCR (remember that ALL rigs can be manually flown... just set a PP02 less than desired on your controller)

Here's an example of getting "tuned into" a rig: When maintaining constant depth, swimming along, you learn to maintain neutral buoyancy with your 02 injection as you metabolize 02. Keep the lungs at the same volume and the PP02 remains constant. This is "hidden physics" to a pure eCCR diver.

As far as learning to dive mCCR before eCCR, that'e exactly how I teach hybrid rEvo, and it's the factory "Leon Approved" training method for the Megaladon as well. My personal opinion is that it should be the training norm for all rigs.



Dave

 

[Dave Sutton]

I can´t say youre wrong Dave but I do know I notice all changes on my HUD or what you called it.

It may be that I have trained to look at it, I don´t know but I do it. I also look at the controller often.

It's because you are looking at it. But think about "how" you do so: You pull your eye focus in, and you "mentally code shift" to accept the data presented. This sort of device is very similar in it's human design interaction with the rows of master warning lights on the glareshield of a jet, as oppised to a "real' HUD that projects data out into infinity where your brain "can" see both that data AND the "real world" as one "intellectual object". Even with "true" HUD systems, I found that when training pilots to use them that it took about 100 hours before they were not "looking at" real world OR synthetic world by code shifting internally. Only after that klength of exposre would they start to be non discriminitive between "real" and "syntnetic" and begin to mentally merge both into a single "data view".

None of the above applies to PFD's (Peripheral Field Displays). You can be concious of the "noise" of the red light that is distracting you from looking completely at "real world" but then to interact completely with the PFD data, you need to look AT IT to completely integrate it into your conciousness. They DO have value, but you CAN and probably DO look right past them more often than you are accepting their input.


Dave

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[anarchista]

If you miss the warnings so far you are probably blind from the beginning. You will not suffer from tunnel vision at PO2 1.5 and then you have had several chances to do something. If you miss that on a HUD you will do it on a handcontrol on a MCCR as well.

A ECCR doesn NOT give a lower level of control, you need to check PO2 just as much as on a ECCR as a MCCR. If you think like that you should stay on land.

It was a case of poisoning in Poland oxygen during decompression at 6m, cerebral form of seizures.
An example of the blind is not appropriate to the symptoms of oxygen poisoning, check out what are the leading symptoms, may also not appear.
Example ppO2 tlko of 1.5 does not include the possible error.

rc greet

 

[Janos]

'm going to patent my Electrodes Attached to the Genitals Display. It's completely unignorable.

Janos

 

[tecdiverdude]

'm going to patent my Electrodes Attached to the Genitals Display. It's completely unignorable.

Janos

Would that be easily confused with a CNS seizure?

 

[emmbee]

I'd like to retract something I said earlier.

I'm not happy running my eCCR manual.

Sure it's fine when you don't have much else to do, but not when trying to maneuver yourself through a wreck, and not when looking for missing buddy #2.

Check out the attached unholy mess, especially the hole around min 30.

So yeah, more practice required. :shrug:

Edit: and yes, it's very easy to tune out the blinkenlights.

Cheers,

Matthieu

 

[Peter L]

It's because you are looking at it. But think about "how" you do so: You pull your eye focus in, and you "mentally code shift" to accept the data presented. This sort of device is very similar in it's human design interaction with the rows of master warning lights on the glareshield of a jet, as oppised to a "real' HUD that projects data out into infinity where your brain "can" see both that data AND the "real world" as one "intellectual object". Even with "true" HUD systems, I found that when training pilots to use them that it took about 100 hours before they were not "looking at" real world OR synthetic world by code shifting internally. Only after that klength of exposre would they start to be non discriminitive between "real" and "syntnetic" and begin to mentally merge both into a single "data view".

None of the above applies to PFD's (Peripheral Field Displays). You can be concious of the "noise" of the red light that is distracting you from looking completely at "real world" but then to interact completely with the PFD data, you need to look AT IT to completely integrate it into your conciousness. They DO have value, but you CAN and probably DO look right past them more often than you are accepting their input.


Dave

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I had a single cell wander by .2 multiple times on a dive and my attention was grabbed and brought to the event by the Shearwater HUD, it may be a PFD but your definitely tuned into normal on it and a variation does distinctly grab your attention. I would not want random reds thrown in for the distraction value as others have said but I was amazed that 2 less flashes on one LED was as startling as it was.

PL

 

[anarchista]

Here's an example of getting "tuned into" a rig: When maintaining constant depth, swimming along, you learn to maintain neutral buoyancy with your 02 injection as you metabolize 02. Keep the lungs at the same volume and the PP02 remains constant. This is "hidden physics" to a pure eCCR diver.

To perform the same effort we need the same amount of oxygen (base Ke). What is a different volume at different depths.
There is no "hidden physics". The deeper the changes are smaller, due to wear the same mass of oxygen.
Yes, it is the effort to regulate his ability to identify, it is physiology.

greetings rc SCR SMS designer

 

[jturner]

Interesting thread! As a slight aside, I'm still new to the CCR and have only ever dived the APD units and never a try-dive so this concept of learning a mCCR before eCCR is a little late for me! Still, good learning to take from it. I suppose that in one way, I've picked the best time to do this - with the recent APD cell problems, I don't recall any dive since my course where I could ever rely on my cells working consistently, so I've been forced into the habit of having to keep a close eye on the handset at all times (as in reading the figures and considering what I'm reading), ready to catch the indication where one or more cells decides to "have a moment"... another brand new one started acting up on my most recent dives, so I guess it's time for another call to APD. Hopefully, the good habit will be heavily engrained now so maybe every cloud does have that silver lining they talk about!

 

[Dave Sutton]

I had a single cell wander by .2 multiple times on a dive and my attention was grabbed and brought to the event by the Shearwater HUD, it may be a PFD but your definitely tuned into normal on it and a variation does distinctly grab your attention.

I'd agree that of all of the PFD's the Shearwater is the one that gets your attention most quickly. I'm actually going to dig into a few of my human factors in engineering books to try to come up with a few citations to back up a hypothesis that I have on "why", but would prefer to wait to propose the reason until I study it a bit more.

Other PFD's have lesser abilities to draw attention to themselves. The rEvodream is simply invisible until you look at it directly, and the Meg PFD may as well not exist, for the lack of intensity and color differentiation. I have normal color vision and I cannot use the single LED version, the difference between the colors is that poor, and in the dual LED version I need to actively look to see if it's the upper or lower LED that is lit... the colors are so poorly saturated that they are nearly impossible to discriminate. The Shearwater one is bright, which is part of it's advantage. There are other benefits associated with the "one LED per cell" system that I'd like to address after I mull it over a bit. I have some ideas as to the "why" but they are not fully formed for description "just yet".


Dave

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[erikradstrom]

I had a single cell wander by .2 multiple times on a dive and my attention was grabbed and brought to the event by the Shearwater HUD, it may be a PFD but your definitely tuned into normal on it and a variation does distinctly grab your attention. I would not want random reds thrown in for the distraction value as others have said but I was amazed that 2 less flashes on one LED was as startling as it was.

PL

I have the same experience as you Peter, that´s why I´m so surprised to Daves comment. But I don´t hesitate that he is correct with that research.

May be it is like he wrote as an answer to you, the SW HUD is better then other. I notice it one light doesn´t blink the same as the other.

 

[Megangel1]

'm going to patent my Electrodes Attached to the Genitals Display. It's completely unignorable.

Janos

That's just balls (or nuts)!

but better than my SAS addon ( Sphincter alert system ) which is simply a pain in the arse.

:thumbsup:


sorry, off topic again :bondage:

 

[blackman]

I agree with Dave about the PFD's. I have a few rebreather friends that have "missed" the PFD's flashing in the past because of concentration on other things, even though it was right in front of their vision, you see past it.
My main concern is in bright sunlight, it is nearly impossible for me to see the flashing on the Meg's PFD, let alone the color.

 

[Dave Sutton]

I notice it one light doesn´t blink the same as the other.

Bingo: This is the reason.


Looking for the best way to articulate the human factors reasons for this. Bottom line is that one LED can do whatever it feels like doing and you don't see it. But three with one breaking syncronization draws immediate attention.


Dave


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[emmbee]

I notice it one light doesn´t blink the same as the other.

Looking for the best way to articulate the human factors reasons for this. Bottom line is that one LED can do whatever it feels like doing and you don't see it. But three with one breaking syncronization draws immediate attention.

Only one I've used is the SW on my JJ.

I think it's great, but, if not focusing on the hud, I'm not yet entirely sure I'll necessarily perceive an out-of-sync extra flash on just one led or just a dimmer last flash - which may not be as attention grabbing?

How do others perceive this?

I'm sure SW has tried, and this is the better option, but maybe having the led blink slower/faster as well, so you 'd get 3 flashes in the same time span as 2, would work too ? I'd assume it would be more difficult to count, tho...

Cheers,

Matthieu

 

[Tmccar1]

I think HUD's are good but not the end all be all. I agree that you can tune them out sometimes also.

On my PRISM 1 the HUD was fantastic at telling you when something was wrong... There was a constant green for normal PPO2, if it went high a bright red light, and if you went low a glaring blue one (the blue was great even in bright sunlight and I wish more units would use it).

However, there was one situation where the HUD showed it's not perfect. The old PRISM had a magnetic on/off switch that was easy to catch on things and turn the unit off. No big deal right?

A few times this happened and I honestly didn't even notice that the constant green light of the HUD was no longer lit. It might have been 10-20 seconds but it was chilling that I didn't instantly notice the change on the HUD. Were I distracted and relying on the ECCR too much to maintain setpoint it easily could have gone quite badly. Something in my brain just tuned it out.

I consider myself pretty paranoid and constantly check everything throughout my dives but this was one thing that I said to myself, "How did I manage to not see that?" A KISS (MCCR) diver friend who I have immense respect for (and former Inspo diver) once told me that one reason he switched to MCCR was he feared he could become too comfortable relying on his ECCR to maintain PPO2, he knew he was human and admitted it. I since switched to MCCR as well. Obviously others may disagree but this was one of the things that pushed MY choice.