Deralie,
A summary of the situation is:
Every diving medicine textbook in the world concurs that VGE may be harmful by crossing right to left shunts. These same books also note that VGE cause cardiopulmonary DCS. In respect of the latter a case has been discussed on this thread where every diving medicine expert involved (and the coroner's verdict) agreed the diver died of cardiopulmonary DCS desite a normal ascent. In designing their dive tables the DCIEM based their schedule selection protocol on VGE counts. Similarly, almost every current decompression research project uses VGE as a measure of decompression stress, working on the proven basis that more VGE is bad. I could go on....
On this background, Ross wishes to advance the notion that VGE are good. They are part of normal decompression. They do no harm. They do not cause DCS. They have been "ignored" for 40 years, and can continue to be ignored. The diver discussed on this thread could not possibly have died from cardiopulmonary DCS. I can only conclude that he pedals these ideas because there are several studies now that have shown that decompressions using the algorithm he sells or other bubble models (somewhat ironically) produce high numbers of VGE under the circumstances reported in those studies.
That's it basically.
Simon M
Here we have yet again... Mitchell is trying to put words in my mouth. Trying to twist matters out of context.
Don't you ever grow tired of trying to push your point using BS and semantics and deliberate efforts to make implied accusations and derogatory comments? How sad that you have to stoop to such pathetic tactics, just to get your point across Mitchell!
You say
"that VGE cause cardiopulmonary DCS" ... really? How often??? About 1 in 100000000000000000 dives?
The truth is, we all have VGE. NDL divers have VGE. PADI divers have VGE. BSAC divers have VGE. Millions and millions of dives every year all have VGE, and surprisingly they don't all drop dead on the deck, clutching their chests. I guess they were just lucky hey? That is a fact that you cannot dismiss Simon.
Of course some people can't tolerate VGE because they have defective circulation systems. Obviously these people are not suitable for the higher stress of deco diving, and need to take an abundance of caution, or stay at the shallow end of the pool. Tough luck for them. No where is it written that everyone has a right to go tech diving.
Your efforts to hide your non-explanation behind a coroner's report, is weak. You have not, and seemingly cannot provide any realistic explanation of the physics or physiology that occurred (or the "massive" VGE you claim) to create such an extreme deviation and sudden death in this man, when he did a seemingly normal and trouble free and common dive profile.
You wrote
"...could not possibly have died from..." those are
YOUR words Simon... NOT mine. Yet again you try to change other peoples comments, context and meaning, just to suit your self - how arrogant of you!
You wrote
"..their dive tables the DCIEM based their schedule selection protocol on VGE counts.." which is in fact, a meaningless bit of semantics that adds up to nothing. What really occurred was The DCIEM based their tables on the Kidd Stubbs model and previous DCIEM tables, as documented in their published report from 93.
You wrote ...
"wishes to advance the notion that VGE are good" Those are
your words Simon Not mine. Yet again you try to change other peoples comments, context and meaning, just to suit your self - how arrogant of you!
You wrote ...
"They are part of normal decompression" Yes they are. And they are part of normal non deco dives too. Part of PADI dives and BSAC and nitrox and air dives, and every other kind of dive. The most shallow recorded dive with VGE was from just 3.3m. Your ignorance of this fact Simon is amazing. Perhaps you have some ulterior motive, or a need to demonize VGE and pretend they only exist in certain dives? Time will tell.
You wrote
"They do no harm. They do not cause DCS." For 99.99% of divers, this is true. Your ignorance of this fact Simon is amazing.
You wrote
"They have been "ignored" for 40 years," Also true. No model, no method, no plan in use today, has taken any cues in deciding the levels of supersaturation limits. The limits of SS is decided on the primary measure of SS levels and gas loads and DCS outcomes - not secondary information like VGE. The exception was that the DCIEM made a few checks against VGE to fine tune the Kidds Stubbs model.
You wrote
"I can only conclude that he pedals these ideas because ...." Simon writes more insults, more malicious and antagonistic comment, and all of it pure BS. What is wrong with you Mitchell.
*****
The problem is we have a doctor / scientist, on an long term agenda to change the world to VGE based diving, by pretending the sky is falling. He twists facts, he ignores the truth, he adds hyperbole and exaggerations, he cannot tolerate other peoples opinions and tries to bully them out of the way using any insult he can get away with.
I think its about time Mitchell got told and enforced to change his bad attitude to others. If this guy can't make his point without insulting others, then maybe he shouldn't be here.
