CMF provides a solid mass at any depth ?

[keri.lewis]

Maybe I am misinterpreting again.. I think Ben's point - as was mine - is that this is nice.. ideal world stuff.. or questions to take into account when actually designing a rebreather with CMF.

Of course there is a tailing off of the addition of O2 according to the formulae. From the structure of the relationships in the formulae, I would expect it to be an exponential curve with flow stopping at Ambient = Intermediate Pressure. However, in practice (with the variations in monitoring technology), you're looking at your PO2 and adding O2 anyway so it has little impact on actually diving the thing. You'd just be adding more frequently at depth to compensate.

Now AFAIK, there is a constant addition technology that is depth independent - a needle valve does this nicely as it is on a normal (Intermediate pressure adjusting) regulator instead of an isolated regulator... and of course you can adjust it underwater.

I am prepared to be corrected, but the only reason I can think of for adding a mixture is on a constant addition SCR, like the Dolphin. Of course, there are many other issues that this brings into the picture, O2 drop etc. unless you are also adding O2 as well. I am happy to be educated about why you would want to add a mixture of gases at a constant rate for scenarios other than SCR, and the practical application of this.

 

[SimonK]

I think our Polish friend is indeed thinking in terms of designing something clever for an SCR, hence the questions.

 

[matt]

I agree that it's not totally clear what the question is, or why, but then I'm not so fussed - it's a question, it may have an answer and a point or not - just see where it goes.

rc is Polish, has self-confessed bad English and used a translator that often makes him look like an arse. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.

Back to the topic (whatever it is), yes - I think the drop-off curve is exponential - does anyone actually know what the values are?

Matt.

 

[anarchista]

The purpose of this topic, find a dose of oxygen to the CCR, which has no depth limitations and is achievable with the use of solenoid valves.

In 2005, was filed with the Patent Office SCR fixed ppO2 SMS.
Oxygen dosing system used there, there is no limit to the depth of work and it is simple.

This question renew
What dose CMF system that has no depth limit work?

rc greet

 

[SimonK]

Well as usual Wikipedia claims to!

Orifice plate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Equation 6, I would go with a C of 0.62 to 0.65 which worked with other (non diving) stuff I have worked on. Your going to need that calculator, pencil and paper.

 

[matt]

Well as usual Wikipedia claims to!

Orifice plate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Equation 6, I would go with a C of 0.62 to 0.65 which worked with other (non diving) stuff I have worked on. Your going to need that calculator, pencil and paper.

Or, we can go with "not enough" as the answer

 

[SimonK]

well I was with a Kiss diver swimming around quite happily at 80m the other day so I guess its not a big deal in reality (he stopped looking happy when his Shearwater went phut, but that's another story)

 

[anarchista]

Or, we can go with "not enough" as the answer

In fact, it is not enough.

Why do we care about mixtures? Only pure O2, no?

I thought the formula for critical-ratio (P1/P2) was:

[ 2/(y+1) ] ^ [ y / (y-1) ]

where y is the ratio-of-heats for oxygen (1.4):

0.833. ^ 3.5 = 0.5282... (as you state).

Not sure what the question is!

Don't know - you'd probably need to work out the density and specific gravity and then do some googling. Sounds like an SCR question to me.

"mixtures of 45% helium, 55% of Air?"

So we calculate the replacement rate.
y(mix)=0,45*1,677 + 0,55*1,4

Other calculations have written.

rc greet

 

[Igor P]

Yes, it would eventually stop when the water pressure equals the IP.

I'm not sure that the reduction is linear - you could probably work it out from here if you knew the orifice Cv: http://www.idealvalve.com/pdf/Flow-Calculation-for-Gases.pdf (could be 0.00022).

Matt.

Thank's. Just what I neaded.

Igor P

 

[anarchista]

I can't see how this thread is of any benefit to anyone.... my point was- if you have a point go ahead and make it, rather than asking questions then being negative about the answers your given.

Why are you worried worried. This statement is not the American way.

Several people have learned more about how they use the device work.

There was no attempt to respond to the initial questions.
Which system in which the type regulator ensures operation CMF at any depth ?

rc greet

 

[keri.lewis]

There was no attempt to respond to the initial questions.
Which system in which the type regulator ensures operation CMF at any depth ?

rc greet

Um... I think you'll find the closest approximation of this in production systems to be a needle valve fed from a standard regulator.. as I said.

However, I could be way off - as I do not understand what your question is asking.

Now your profile says that you design SCRs. So you are either -

1. Asking a very technical question that we haven't figured out what you are asking yet
2. Building up a marketing pitch for the SCR you designed..

For point 1 - it is definitely a language thing, but maybe you can ask someone else to help express the question, or put it up in Polish so that others can help us understand. That way you could get some considered thoughts rather than people trying to guess what you are asking and providing their best guess in response.
For point 2 - well I can't say that this would be a good approach...

Can we get some clarity about what is being asked before people's attention wavers and we all wander off into other arguments :hehehm:

EDIT : Oh and the reason it's "not the American way" is that nobody on this thread so far is American.. you'll find Ireland, Slovenia and UK.. we don't necessarily conform to the American way..

 

[anarchista]

Um... I think you'll find the closest approximation of this in production systems to be a needle valve fed from a standard regulator.. as I said.

However, I could be way off - as I do not understand what your question is asking.

Now your profile says that you design SCRs. So you are either -

1. Asking a very technical question that we haven't figured out what you are asking yet
2. Building up a marketing pitch for the SCR you designed..

For point 1 - it is definitely a language thing, but maybe you can ask someone else to help express the question, or put it up in Polish so that others can help us understand. That way you could get some considered thoughts rather than people trying to guess what you are asking and providing their best guess in response.
For point 2 - well I can't say that this would be a good approach...

Can we get some clarity about what is being asked before people's attention wavers and we all wander off into other arguments :hehehm:

Solution of the needle valve requires the participation of a diver
This redundant monitoring system next.

I have 3 SCR SMS solutions, with constant ppO2 (P-377789, P-386700, P-393223)

The question is simple.
CMF system that work with no limit to the depth, as it looks ?

There is no any solution to the problem.

rc greet

 

[matt]

[*]Asking a very technical question that we haven't figured out what you are asking yet

I think the question may be "how do you design/configure a "series" of mechanical valves that give constant mass flow at any depth?".

Perhaps rc will enlighten us to the solution?

Matt.

 

[Peter L]

I think the question may be "how do you design/configure a "series" of mechanical valves that give constant mass flow at any depth?".

Perhaps rc will enlighten us to the solution?

Matt.

I am going to regret stepping in on this thread but it and lots of others by the same OP have taught me not to ever try and play pen pal in another language via google translate, the tone comes across as something between rude and stupid and neither of them work for technical topics. Rhetorical or rude but not helpful.

My guess is that our friend is trying to reverse engineer the marketing claims made by the good boys from Narked in relation to the Aurora Blue and as John said the approach and idea is good enough to be patented so I don't think our friend deserves the inside running until they have their patents in place given his existing reference to patents I would hate to see their hard work taken for granted so quickly..

WHY ARE YOU ASKING THESE QUESTIONS???

 

[matt]

My guess is that our friend is trying to reverse engineer the marketing claims made by the good boys from Narked in relation to the Aurora Blue

That's interesting. rc has 3 (maybe more) patents that look very interesting: all translations via google.

rc, do you have a link to the actual patent preferably in English?

Cheers
Matt.

The abstract:

(57) Deepwater diving apparatus with semi-closed circuit, of the assembled oxygen chemically KO 2 , NaO 2 , Lio 2 a stable oxygen partial pressure, irrespective of the depth and ventilation, characterized in that the bellows has an inner (7) for dosing inertu, in proportion to the depth and ventilation, coupled with a big smile. The same mixing the mixture to a depth appropriate respirator for any inertu.

The abstract:

(57) The universal deepwater diving apparatus with semi-closed circuit, with a fixed excess of oxygen in each ventilation cycle, producing a respiratory agent by physical means in the process of diving with oxygen partial pressure constant is independent of the depth of ventilation and wherein the oxygen is fed under constant weight and the inert gas or any mixture of inert gas is fed-tion mode directly proportional to the weight of the hydrostatic pressure. It has air ventilation system of counting. It has a double-walled jacket for the thermal protection of carbon dioxide absorber (22). The space between the walls is filled with pure oxygen supplied from the regulator (6) with a slight negative pressure relative to ambient. Tory oxygen and inert gas are manomerty (11) and (12) control, located in the field of view of the diver, provide information about the operation of the circuit, as well as for regulatory work.

The abstract:

(57) Method of modification of the semi-closed circuit family CMR SCR and SCR CVR to a constant oxygen partial pressure, respiratory producing agent by physical means in the process of the dive, a constant oxygen partial pressure and is independent of the depth of ventilation, characterized in that oxygen is fed in constant weight mode, implemented through a pneumatic cylinder-powered emptying relative constant pressure. Inert gas or any mixture of inert gases is administered under directly proportional to the mass of the hydrostatic pressure, carried out by emptying the cylinder pressure fed directly proportional to the depth of the degree of reduction of the differential piston with a special construction, switchable valve controlled pressure changes in the oxygen circuit with pneumatic actuator .

 

[Peter L]

Why does that lot look like a bunch of patent squatting?

Does the OP work / own a production house for systems or have working proof of concept systems to back up these claims? I'm taking the words of a certain silent subscriber when I ask for "full disclosure" and more so would caution anyone sharing further technical detail of other units given what appears to be some rather unsavoury intentions until proved alternately.

 

[matt]

Why does that lot look like a bunch of patent squatting?

Cannot tell due to the poor translation by google.

Does the OP work / own a production house for systems or have working proof of concept systems to back up these claims?

Good question - do you have a working machine, rc?

Does anyone know how to decode the diagram?

Matt.

 

[matt]

rc - does your patent suggest using Potassium superoxide as both a CO2 absorber and O2 generator?

Potassium superoxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No wonder there is a big-smile in the translation!

Matt.

The abstract:

(57) Deepwater diving apparatus with semi-closed circuit, of the assembled oxygen chemically KO 2 , NaO 2 , Lio 2 a stable oxygen partial pressure, irrespective of the depth and ventilation, characterized in that the bellows has an inner (7) for dosing inertu, in proportion to the depth and ventilation, coupled with a big smile. The same mixing the mixture to a depth appropriate respirator for any inertu.

 

[anarchista]

rc - does your patent suggest using Potassium superoxide as both a CO2 absorber and O2 generator?

Ocourse.

In a nutshell.

Abbreviations patents are difficult to machine translation.
There are still important information.

All solutions are based on the relationship between the oxygen consumption in the counted ventilation.
In two embodiments, an inert gas is added in direct proportion to the hydrostatic pressure, and is adjustable dosage of oxygen, ontogenetic to the ceiling oxygen. When creating a regeneration dose.
Solution of oxygen chemically assembled a less precise but simple counting system ventilation and inert gas dosing proportional to the total pressure.
All solutions in the field of HAHO operate up to 100m underwater.
Very interesting is the last modified SCR CVR (PSCR) to a constant ppO2, but here it complicated numbering and will be released in a few years, as the description will be published.

Solutions 1 and 2 over the patent examination process and will soon be published in full.
Solution of oxygen chemically assembled test sample was carried, out which does not kill me.

rc greet

 

[RCU]

Ocourse.

In a nutshell.

Abbreviations patents are difficult to machine translation.
There are still important information.

All solutions are based on the relationship between the oxygen consumption in the counted ventilation.
In two embodiments, an inert gas is added in direct proportion to the hydrostatic pressure, and is adjustable dosage of oxygen, ontogenetic to the ceiling oxygen. When creating a regeneration dose.
Solution of oxygen chemically assembled a less precise but simple counting system ventilation and inert gas dosing proportional to the total pressure.
All solutions in the field of HAHO operate up to 100m underwater.
Very interesting is the last modified SCR CVR (PSCR) to a constant ppO2, but here it complicated numbering and will be released in a few years, as the description will be published.

Solutions 1 and 2 over the patent examination process and will soon be published in full.
Solution of oxygen chemically assembled test sample was carried, out which does not kill me.

rc greet

Do you have any plans to manufacture and sell any of these models? Any information or pictures?

Also, how readily available is HAHO to the public and if so, what is the cost?

Robert