Cell Husbandry

the other baffling part, is he had to have seen the voting out of a cell, and I know for me, I see that, and I'm on defcon 1, spiking O2 as a check, or a dil/depth check and then watching it like a hawk.

That is puzzling as well. It was an overall sad and avoidable accident. But its ingrained in me an absolute and anal retentive attitude towards cell maintainence, and during dive checks policy as well.
 
How would a good or bad cell kill / save somone?

Even if you dont do proper cell checks with dill at depth and 02 spikes, surely it would take three cells all reading an incorect PP02 and holding a stable 1.3 to kill a diver carrying out even the most rudamentory PP02 checks?

eCCR. Actually only takes 2 bad cells reading too low. The high (more accurate) reading cell was voted out. If the dive had been cancelled, or one of the low reading cells had been replaced, or the setpoint dropped and run manually based on the higher reading cell, or even just bailed out sooner (no BOV I'm told), the issue would have substantially been mitigated and the fatal tox event dodged.
 
I think Mark's point is that only the case of three cells wrongly reading 1.3 would fail to warn the diver that he had an issue to sort out.
 
You have to wonder how the oxygen manual add valve was rigged either in the inhale or exhale counterlung as this was a deep dive it could possibly have been an issue of manually adding directly into the diver at depth.
I've heard many times that this isn't an issue and the design of said rebreather is not a concern but I'm not entirely convinced considering the fact that this wasn't the first suspected ox tox event on that unit. Of course cell husbandry is important on any unit.


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Even a BOV wouldn t have mattered, as he seized so hard he spit out his BO reg, and I couldnt get anything back in his mouth.

AFAIK he always dove eccr, and didnt run low set point with manual add, but I cant say that with 100% assurity. Its possible, but I didnt check what his setpoint was when I shut his meg down. I believe he was running 1.0, because I recall it took me more button presses to get to manual than I was expecting. But I didnt take note of the actual setpoint. But given the cells values on the bench shortly afterwards, it was likely running low SP. (cells read .79/.91/1.02)
 
You have to wonder how the oxygen manual add valve was rigged either in the inhale or exhale counterlung as this was a deep dive it could possibly have been an issue of manually adding directly into the diver at depth.
I've heard many times that this isn't an issue and the design of said rebreather is not a concern but I'm not entirely convinced considering the fact that this wasn't the first suspected ox tox event on that unit. Of course cell husbandry is important on any unit.

The O2 MAV on the inhale lung has been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere. Its not the issue, its run that way on many units and originally designed that way based on the mK15 (I think) or previous Navy units.

My only point about the BOV is that it in theory allows someone to get off the loop faster. I don't know how long it took him to switch to BO, not sure if he signaled or you noticed that time.

I'm assuming those bench ppO2s need to be multiplied by the depth (in ATAs) you were at?
 
The O2 MAV on the inhale lung has been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere. Its not the issue, its run that way on many units and originally designed that way based on the mK15 (I think) or previous Navy units.

My only point about the BOV is that it in theory allows someone to get off the loop faster. I don't know how long it took him to switch to BO, not sure if he signaled or you noticed that time.

I'm assuming those bench ppO2s need to be multiplied by the depth (in ATAs) you were at?

I realize it's been discussed a ton but has anyone ever been able to analyze the gas at depth just prior to the DSV in a rebreather that injects into the inhale counterlung to determine any kind of actual data, factual. The NAVY uses all kinds of old shit because it works yes but seriously it sounds like a safety hazard. The purpose of having the oxygen in the inhale counterlung is what? And is that reason validated/substantiated?


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I don't know how long it took him to switch to BO, not sure if he signaled or you noticed that time.

I'm assuming those bench ppO2s need to be multiplied by the depth (in ATAs) you were at?
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He signaled me. As I was only about 3 feet away from him. Those readings were at or about sea level.
 
The purpose of having the oxygen in the inhale counterlung is what? And is that reason validated/substantiated?

I don't know if it was the reason for the design but in case of hypoxia, having the injection into the inhale lung could increase pO2 faster.



iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.
 
I don't know if it was the reason for the design but in case of hypoxia, having the injection into the inhale lung could increase pO2 faster.



iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

I believe there have been quite a few people who have demonstrated the extended period of time where PPO2 will drop. My biggest concern and the number one reason I'm turned off from that MAV position is that if a problem with the MAV occurs it's seconds from a disaster where as if the O2 MAV stuck open on exhale it has to go through the entire rebreather before you have issues.

As you know the response to Hypoxic isn't oxygen flush but actually Diluent flush.... Known PPO2.

During the training for this rebreather if the diver all of the sudden notices the PPO2 of 0.18 would you add oxygen or do a diluent flush? Real question because I haven't been trained on this unit.

Thanks
Garth


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As you know the response to Hypoxic isn't oxygen flush but actually Diluent flush.... Known PPO2.

Genuine question, which training was this?

I certainly didnt get taught that and even if i had, I'd be questioning the logic behind this one.
 
Genuine question, which training was this?

I certainly didnt get taught that and even if i had, I'd be questioning the logic behind this one.

I'm glad you replied. Maybe this should be a new thread.


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I don't think of a dil flush for hypoxia, despite what some instructors may try to teach. Here's my thinking on it and I really don't care if anyone agrees (I'm starting to sound like Don). If you dive mCCR, you are used to periodically hitting the O2 MAV to give a little squirt to bring pO2 up a bit. Same thing on eCCR if you happen to notice pO2 falling a bit and either you have setpoint low or maybe your solenoid is not working. So if your pO2 drops from 1.2 to 1.1, you are going to hit the O2 MAV. Or maybe if it drops to 1.0, same thing. Or 0.8 or 0.6. At what point do you suddenly switch to a dil flush instead of adding O2? No one is talking about an O2 flush here, just manually adding O2. And to me, muscle memory and keeping things simple is more important. If you look down and see your pO2 is at 0.18, you screwed the pooch somewhere along the line by not seeing it drop before then. In a true emergency setting, the last thing you want to do is to have to think about what to do. We train to make reactions automatic. So if your automatic reaction to any emergency is to do a dil flush, then that's fine. It will bring your pO2 up (assuming you're not a total dumbass using 10/50 while shallow). But if your automatic reaction to any hypoxic situation is to manually add O2, that's also fine.

You just have to draw the line somewhere between what is an emergency and what is not. Folks used to running manually (even on eCCR) might have a very different response than those who have always run pure eCCR.

Flame away, boys.
 
I don't think of a dil flush for hypoxia, despite what some instructors may try to teach. Here's my thinking on it and I really don't care if anyone agrees (I'm starting to sound like Don). If you dive mCCR, you are used to periodically hitting the O2 MAV to give a little squirt to bring pO2 up a bit. Same thing on eCCR if you happen to notice pO2 falling a bit and either you have setpoint low or maybe your solenoid is not working. So if your pO2 drops from 1.2 to 1.1, you are going to hit the O2 MAV. Or maybe if it drops to 1.0, same thing. Or 0.8 or 0.6. At what point do you suddenly switch to a dil flush instead of adding O2? No one is talking about an O2 flush here, just manually adding O2. And to me, muscle memory and keeping things simple is more important. If you look down and see your pO2 is at 0.18, you screwed the pooch somewhere along the line by not seeing it drop before then. In a true emergency setting, the last thing you want to do is to have to think about what to do. We train to make reactions automatic. So if your automatic reaction to any emergency is to do a dil flush, then that's fine. It will bring your pO2 up (assuming you're not a total dumbass using 10/50 while shallow). But if your automatic reaction to any hypoxic situation is to manually add O2, that's also fine.

You just have to draw the line somewhere between what is an emergency and what is not. Folks used to running manually (even on eCCR) might have a very different response than those who have always run pure eCCR.

Flame away, boys.

After some rethinking I have to agree with Ken. I dive mCCR so can understand the reasoning. On mCCR with O2 addition in inhale side you are checking sensor reaction with every addition, so arriving at 0.18 I would probably think something wrong with O2 supply/addition and check with dill flash. Known gas etc etc....

Igor P

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During the training for this rebreather if the diver all of the sudden notices the PPO2 of 0.18 would you add oxygen or do a diluent flush? Real question because I haven't been trained on this unit.

As Ken said, in an approved Meg class it would be to add O2 with the MAV. Same as if you found the ppO2 at 0.8 or really anywhere below setpoint. If you were really scared and at 0.14 or something and confused about how you could possible get that low - then bailout and deal with it later (e.g. undetected O2 roll off). There's no dil flush for low ppO2 condition. That would be really bad if (for instance) you were running extremely low (or none) O2 in dil.

Above setpoint its a judgment call to either breath it down, dil flush, and/or bailout.
 
After some rethinking I have to agree with Ken. I dive mCCR so can understand the reasoning. On mCCR with O2 addition in inhale side you are checking sensor reaction with every addition, so arriving at 0.18 I would probably think something wrong with O2 supply/addition and check with dill flash. Known gas etc etc....

Igor P

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Sure, your cells are probably fine..


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As Ken said, in an approved Meg class it would be to add O2 with the MAV. Same as if you found the ppO2 at 0.8 or really anywhere below setpoint. If you were really scared and at 0.14 or something and confused about how you could possible get that low - then bailout and deal with it later (e.g. undetected O2 roll off). There's no dil flush for low ppO2 condition. That would be really bad if (for instance) you were running extremely low (or none) O2 in dil.

Above setpoint its a judgment call to either breath it down, dil flush, and/or bailout.

Yup, Kens probably right and your cells are probably fine.


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Sure, your cells are probably fine..


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Yes, correct. You check ppo2 with every o2 addition, so you know sensors are probably fine. So or you did not add O2 too long or O2 supply is compromised (orifice blocked or something similar). So dill flash and ppo2 check. Bailout would be solution too...

Igor P

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