Buddy System

[Pokeystar]

I am still working my way through the beginings of ccr. Currently diving the unit within the limits of recreational diving and happy to do so as i tune skills and build experiance. On every dive i have an experianced diver from a pool of club members to accompany me and and we have discussed/drilled all the things buddies need to do.
I have however read at least two reports of fatalities recently where divers either descended without a buddy or ended a dive on a charter without being accompanied.
I understand that the role of the buddy is limited at very deep depths or that buddy seperstion with deco obligations means time to yourself, but i cant understand letting someone head for the surface charter or not unaccompanied let alone descending. Is solo in groups the actual practice as I head further down this route?

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[Mike Ferguson]

ah the perennial solo diving issue. Basically the answer to your question for the majority of dives will be yes.

Anybody who dives past 40m or goes into extended decompression had better be prepared to spend some time on their own at some point. It's a fact of life that occasionally you lose your buddy for some reason or other. I would say that not far off 75% of the time I am effectively on my own if something goes badly wrong. A buddy at the edge of visibility or with his head stuck in a hole or looking the other way is not going to help you and may as well not be there. In addition put yourself in the shoes of the experienced CCR divers you are diving with, when they started to take you with them they were effectively solo diving. With all the best will in the world you weren't in a position to help if things went badly wrong for them.

Apart from that nobody is really going to rescue you past 40m. They might assist you in rescuing yourself by handing you additional gas etc if you're really unlucky and there's an issue with your own bailout gas. Other than that all they can really do is fire you up to the surface once you've stopped thrashing about. If they skipped an hour or more of deco to bring you all the way up they would be in big trouble as well.

If you plan and mentally prepare yourself for getting yourself home when things go wrong, having a buddy there when the shit hits the fan is an added bonus, but not something you should count on. At the end of the day the only person you should trust to get you home is you. No one else will have quite the same focus when it comes to keeping you alive.

If everyone you dive with has the same philosophy it inevitably becomes what you so accurately describe, solo diving in groups.

mike

 

[Iain3]

If everyone you dive with has the same philosophy it inevitably becomes what you so accurately describe, solo diving in groups.

mike

You may find the "Team Diving" groups too, where a group of divers plan the dive and plan their bailout so they can work together. This is particularly for deeper dives when you can't carry the bailout required to get you to the surface safely, you work on the assumption that in a group of 3 no more than 2 of you will have to bail-out, so you share gas.

For example, on a deep dive I know that if I get to the shotline with my team it should be a nice comfortable bailout. If the team fail to reach the shotline we should be able to a nice comfortable open water bailout. If another team member has issues it will be tight.

If I lose my team but get to the shotline I should be able to skip deep stops and use shallow bail-out on the line to pad out the shallow stops making up for no deep ones. I may end up switching to 50% at 30-40m if I run out but I won't be there long so hopefully it will be ok.

If I lose the team and miss the shot I would send up my orange blob, then a yellow blob and hope they are spotted. I have enough gas to reach the surface alive but very likely bent. Hopefully someone will drop down the line and give me gas to sit out the stops.

I'm not sure whether I consider that solo or buddied. I'm using the team to facilitate dives I could only do alone as an alpinist, but I don't really follow team mentality in the water, more bunch mentality.

 

[WFO]

The team mentality would be really nice, but I don't really know enough people who have similar enough mindset and ambitions.

It would be great to have a close team where you could commit to training together and diving together. But the doctrine is pretty pointless if there's one dive your buddies can't make and you say "sod it" and solo it.

On that basis plan for self sufficiency and if you have someone else along you can bash out a bit of a 'plan' for assistance which can be given if needed.

I quite like diving solo, no worries about what anyone else is doing. Much calmer and more chilled out.

 

[Peter L]

Mr Pokey.....

Qn: Are you coming to CCR from deco procedures + or from a recreation route and what's your dive objectives?

The reason for asking is that as soon as you accept an overhead environment (deco, caves / wrecks) your in effect as others have stated near to solo always. The one thing that a recreational dive set-up (single air-source) gives you is that arse clenching nervousness that your only alternate air is swimming a few metres away and it tends to encourage buddy grouping. When options open up people tend to be less careful about proximity and more so they tend to loose each other in the process.

From a diving perspective 90% of my technical diving is solo, I plan for it, I prep for it I run bailout gas plans for it, that's the mindset you need to know that no matter what happens you are good for all that happens. If however I have a buddy and by some luck they are still there as I leave the bottom then all they have contributed is more gas and therefore more bottom time for my bail out plan but I went in assuming they would not be there and I am happy if they still are.

 

[Garspeed]

having a buddy there when the shit hits the fan is an added bonus, but not something you should count on

100% agreement on this one Mike. I will rarely dive solo, often in a team and sometimes in a buddy pair but either way, I dive with the expectation that I need to get home on my own. That's why I hump around 2 ali 80's, twin reels, blobs etc and whilst I would expect help from a team or buddy if I need it, I should be competent to make it on my own if required. At best an attentive buddy is there close by to help, at worst I can't make the shot and all else do so I am on my own anyway.

Cheers
Gar

 

[matt]

I understand that the role of the buddy is limited at very deep depths or that buddy seperstion with deco obligations means time to yourself, but i cant understand letting someone head for the surface charter or not unaccompanied let alone descending. Is solo in groups the actual practice as I head further down this route?

Not at all. I nearly always dive with a buddy and I find it more fun this way. I do think that you need to have a lot of self sufficiency about you and that you ought to know how to look after yourself - but there is no substitute for having someone you trust in the water with you.

I've made a few deep dives solo (two times over 100m - one with only me in the water) and it was OK - but it's more fun with a buddy.

Some folks dive solo all the time - and I'm fine with that too.

Matt.

 

[Mike Ward]

My 2p, an awful lot of OC diving is 'solo in a group' - think the crocodile behind the divemaster somewhere warm with blue-water.

At least tech/CCR divers are honest enough to admit that's what they're doing when they're not actually solo and are usually sufficiently sorted to deal with it.

 

[Clare]

Completely different stance here.

Team diving 100 per cent of time. Been in water alone for about 10 minutes in 1300 plus dives. Loss of team mate is a dive ending failure and to be honest with my regular team doesn't happen beyond the "where's their light...oh there it is" moment.

Far too often the phrase "if you can't do the dive alone you shouldn't do it" is used. This is a pointless statement. To team dive I have to be good enough to do my own dive AND help my buddy. He had to be that good too. True team divers are not burdens to each other - instead two strong divers working together become stronger still.

The most important piece of equipment my buddy brings along is another brain and another dose of common sense. All the redundant kit in the world doesn't bring that. They bring a longer reach and more leverage too which can be helpful

I suffered a reaction to hydrogen sulphide on a cave dive a few years ago. The constant vomiting and dizziness left me incapacitated and barely able to swim let alone navigate what was a complex route. Lord knows what I would have done with a 60 odd minute exit without guidance. As it was, we fled the cave leaving all markers and jumps in place but still we used reserve has due to extended exit time - and I was assisted wherever the cave was big enough to fit two divers side by side. On my own I doubt I would have made it out - although who knows.

Those who claim that the buddy system is flawed, or unnecessary, I used to believe had a right to choose how to behave themselves, taking their own risks in the knowledge of what they were doing. Then I met with the partner of a diver who had died when the worst, most skill challenged, buddy in the world could have potentially saved them. Instead they died alone on an easy dive, tangled in line. Their partner, their family and those who dealt with the rescue had to live with that knowledge. That was no dive where logistics meant that to push the boundaries of exploration only one diver could be supported. That was a dive where ascending alone was just seen as an acceptable choice so as not to inconvenience anyone. The result impacts on many lives to this day.

I am not arguing for policing or outlawing solo diving. I still believe in personal responsibility. But for goodness sake, can we stop the 'you can't buddy dive in a cave or in a deco dive' mentality. If YOU can't buddy dive then get better skills. If your BUDDY can't (or won't) then choose who you dive with more carefully.

 

[Mark Chase]

I often dive solo and I often dive in a two or three.

A good buddy is great to have. A bad buddy is a liability

Good buddies are hard to find

In many ways I am safer solo. I focus totally on me without the distraction of looking out for my buddy and I manage my dive to my comfort zone not my buddies.

With a buddy I have the advantage if I become incapacitated he can help. This advantage has to be balanced against the risk of a bad buddy.

 

[matt]

I am not arguing for policing or outlawing solo diving. I still believe in personal responsibility. But for goodness sake, can we stop the 'you can't buddy dive in a cave or in a deco dive' mentality. If YOU can't buddy dive then get better skills. If your BUDDY can't (or won't) then choose who you dive with more carefully.

Great post, totally agree.

 

[lizardland]

But for goodness sake, can we stop the 'you can't buddy dive in a cave or in a deco dive' mentality.

That is a bit overly dogmatic. There are plenty of caves where buddy diving is not only difficult but more than likely dangerous. However you'd be unlikely to fit a rebreather in any of them. There are also places where logistically buddy diving is difficult just because of what's involved in getting one diver in the water never mind two, I've done carries where there was four of us sherpaing for one diver, trying to get 8 people through the same passage would again be pushing the risk up. "You can't buddy dive in every cave" is a better mantra and if diving those caves interests you then you need to accept a solo mindset or don't dive.

I dive solo and I dive with buddies, I'm happy doing either. For the social side I'd far rather dive with others but underwater I can take it or leave it. I also quite enjoy F.O.'ing for a few days on my jack with just my tent and my rebreather for company up the west coast of Scotland. There is no pragmatic justification other than I enjoy it.

When I'm on my own I'm a lot less bold than I am with a buddy, I am less inclined to penetrate a wreck or do huge bottom times or other things that would add to the risk. I wonder how much of the safety advantage of having a buddy is negated by taking more chances because you have a buddy?

I also wonder just how useful a buddy is. I know there are a lot of cases where a buddy has saved a diver but there must be an awful lot where it hasn't made any difference. If you accept that there are situations likely enough where a buddy is the difference between life and death then don't you also need to accept that the diving you are doing is too dangerous? Having a buddy save you is not the same thing as making the dive safe.

 

[Mark Chase]

That is a bit overly dogmatic. There are plenty of caves where buddy diving is not only difficult but more than likely dangerous. However you'd be unlikely to fit a rebreather in any of them. There are also places where logistically buddy diving is difficult just because of what's involved in getting one diver in the water never mind two, I've done carries where there was four of us sherpaing for one diver, trying to get 8 people through the same passage would again be pushing the risk up. "You can't buddy dive in every cave" is a better mantra and if diving those caves interests you then you need to accept a solo mindset or don't dive.

I dive solo and I dive with buddies, I'm happy doing either. For the social side I'd far rather dive with others but underwater I can take it or leave it. I also quite enjoy F.O.'ing for a few days on my jack with just my tent and my rebreather for company up the west coast of Scotland. There is no pragmatic justification other than I enjoy it.

When I'm on my own I'm a lot less bold than I am with a buddy, I am less inclined to penetrate a wreck or do huge bottom times or other things that would add to the risk. I wonder how much of the safety advantage of having a buddy is negated by taking more chances because you have a buddy?

I also wonder just how useful a buddy is. I know there are a lot of cases where a buddy has saved a diver but there must be an awful lot where it hasn't made any difference. If you accept that there are situations likely enough where a buddy is the difference between life and death then don't you also need to accept that the diving you are doing is too dangerous? Having a buddy save you is not the same thing as making the dive safe.

Eloquently put, great post.

ATB

Mark

 

[Pokeystar]

Thanks for the contibutions. To answer a earlier question I have made the move from rec to ccr as my technical step. The wisdom of this is a great point of debate I know. But as a rec diver I moved away from padi diving because i didnt like the random stranger system who half the time had rolled into the water before the end of a buddy check. I thought long and hard about safety in moving to cc. In reading lots a material on deaths a lot are at depths where rescue is a possibility. I have read recently about a fatality on a charted dive. No one returned to the shot/surface with the victim when they decided to pull the dive. I understand tgat time and money goes into these dives but the what if question remains. Cave dives I know nothing about. At 6'4 and 17 stone I wasnt built for small spaces.

For now its definately useful to have redundecy in the brain dept.

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[Mike Ferguson]

I am not arguing for policing or outlawing solo diving. I still believe in personal responsibility. But for goodness sake, can we stop the 'you can't buddy dive in a cave or in a deco dive' mentality. If YOU can't buddy dive then get better skills. If your BUDDY can't (or won't) then choose who you dive with more carefully.

I don't think anybody was saying you can't buddy dive in a cave or deco dive. No one appeared to be advocating 'unsafe' diving practices or posturing, they were merely replying to the OP's original observation / question on the reality of UK diving practices as practised by the great unwashed. I can't comment for the cave diving fraternity as it's not my thing, but after many years of open water diving in the UK I have seen enough to realise that there are an awful lot of people amongst the more 'adventurous' open water/wreck divers who are perfectly capable of buddy diving effectively but recognise the additional risk that a complacent attitude of "I'm diving with a buddy so if I get into trouble there will be someone to look after me' brings to the party and plan accordingly.

Personally I'm far more horrified at the zero to hero mentality prevalent in the 'techie' community which results in badge collecting buddies taking course after course and egging each other on to undertake dives that they are really not prepared for or comfortable with, than people admitting that they don't rely on a buddy to get them home.

I'd love to find a perfect buddy who will always be there for me when needed but unfortunately I have come to the same conclusion as Mark, they are about as easy to find as rocking horse poo. I've been playing this game continuously for 30 years and looking back have effectively been diving solo for the vast majority of that time. In all that time and dives measured in the thousands rather than hundreds I have probably only ever dived with about 3 people I could really trust to do anything useful in an emergency. I'm glad you can pick and choose your buddies but speaking for myself quite often the choice is not about who to have as a buddy but whether to do the dive or take up golf instead.

 

[Mark Chase]

Thanks for the contibutions. To answer a earlier question I have made the move from rec to ccr as my technical step. The wisdom of this is a great point of debate I know. But as a rec diver I moved away from padi diving because i didnt like the random stranger system who half the time had rolled into the water before the end of a buddy check. I thought long and hard about safety in moving to cc. In reading lots a material on deaths a lot are at depths where rescue is a possibility. I have read recently about a fatality on a charted dive. No one returned to the shot/surface with the victim when they decided to pull the dive. I understand tgat time and money goes into these dives but the what if question remains. Cave dives I know nothing about. At 6'4 and 17 stone I wasnt built for small spaces.

For now its definately useful to have redundecy in the brain dept.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

The above happens all the time in all forms of diving.

We lost one of our group a few weeks ago under similar circumstances. Diving OC or CCR makes absolutely no difference to the buddy system. Neither does doing a 20m dive against a 100m dive.

You make the difference if you decide to put the time and effort into nurturing a regular dive buddy and tight buddy skills.


Its pretty hard for most of us to achieve. I managed it for about three years then he basically quit UK diving and i have dived alone or with who ever was available ever since.


Don't imagine for one second that technical divers are any better at this than year 1 PADI divers. TBH the PADI divers are probably better at buddy diving than most tec divers.

ATB

Mark

 

[Baron015]

The above happens all the time in all forms of diving.

We lost one of our group a few weeks ago under similar circumstances. Diving OC or CCR makes absolutely no difference to the buddy system. Neither does doing a 20m dive against a 100m dive.

You make the difference if you decide to put the time and effort into nurturing a regular dive buddy and tight buddy skills.


Its pretty hard for most of us to achieve. I managed it for about three years then he basically quit UK diving and i have dived alone or with who ever was available ever since.

Totally concur. With my regular buddy we've had separation once in over 200 dives. When I buddy up with random punter on the boat, I would say 50/50 chance of separation. When I dive with Jesus, I know exactly who is looking after me i.e. only me.

 

[Peter L]

Totally concur. With my regular buddy we've had separation once in over 200 dives. When I buddy up with random punter on the boat, I would say 50/50 chance of separation. When I dive with Jesus, I know exactly who is looking after me i.e. only me.

My OC rec diving wife considers me to be her primary buddy... 0% separation.
I don't have time in my life for polygamy......

 

[Dave Sutton]

The best buddies are a diving extension of another relationship, and diving is just a portion of the friendship. I have two regular buddies, one for recreational diving and one for rebreather/wreck/cave/deep. The first is my daughter, and the second is Jitka. Communication without words underwater is an extension of being able to read each others mind topside over dinner. Any other pairing is done with reluctance.

Nurturing a team, no matter if just one other or a club full is definately worthwhile.


Dave

 

[Tiptopperoo]

When I dive with Jesus, I know exactly who is looking after me i.e. only me.

Agree. Have you seen how outdated his kit is!