Accident in Finland

Well, if an ADV o-ring/seat fails, then you have a free-flow.

Is the rEVO ADV (only saw it once at LIDS) upstream and, in any event, it cannot free-flow?

The Meg ADV can free-flow and it is a plunger type (not derived from an OC 2nd stage upstream or downstream).

I only know that the Inspo ADV is upstream. I was told that it was so by design in order to prevent gas from freeflowing in to the loop. Can't remeber what it says in the manual about this though.
I'll have to check the service manual to figure out if there is an o-ring that can break an let gas bypass in to the loop, haven't thought about that... but don't think so...


/nils
 
I only know that the Inspo ADV is upstream. I was told that it was so by design in order to prevent gas from freeflowing in to the loop. Can't remeber what it says in the manual about this though.
I'll have to check the service manual to figure out if there is an o-ring that can break an let gas bypass in to the loop, haven't thought about that... but don't think so...


/nils

Can upstream design 2nd stages free-flow (as a design irrespective of make)?

Maybe an engineer can answer (I suspect they could, but I am not sure since all modern ones I am familiar with are downstream).
 
Inspo has a manual dil add independent from the ADV, but manual dil add is optional on JJ.(both CE and non-CE).
So this might be the reason why divers are asked not to install an ADV shutoff on JJ.
(again just guessing)
 
Last edited:
[*]Start with AIR diluent & ADV shut-off open so ADV can supply breathable gas to loop in shallows



Why would you want even air available "in the shallows"?

The Meg training procedure of starting on the strap-in with something in the loop "less than setpoint" and then letting the solenoid bring the system up to 70% and then jumping in with the isolator off was selected for a few reasons:

(1): It checks to see that your 02 bottle is actually on.

(2): It validates your solenoid and controller function.

(3): 0.7 is a gas that you cannot "breath down to hypoxic" while still having a breathable volume of gas in the loop, even at the surface. (leaner "jump" PP02 selections, such as 0.40, may go hypoxic while being metabolized, yet leave a breathable volume in the lungs).

(4): If you have an "optimal loop volume" you can descend to 6 meters /20 feet with that volume in the lungs, adding 02 using your manual bypass valve "if needed" to have lung volume. You will pretty quickly learn to set the lung volume on-deck so you do not even need to do this.

(5): If you have correct diluents for depths, you will not generally spike your PP02 on descent if you start at 6 meters with "what you end up with there" using this procedure.

(6): There is no possibility of adding diluent either by diver error or by technical malfunction because the ADV is off until descent from 6 meters is initiated.

This is THE STANDARD for Meg training, and is a procedure that has been well proven to be robust and error-detecting. It checks 02 bottle, controller, solenoid, and precludes shallow water hypoxia.


Back to the basics:

Shallow water hypoxia is caused by one of two things:


(1): 02 supply not operating.

(2): Uncommanded diluent being added.



Remediations:

(1): Let the 02 system keep you alive for 5 minutes on the surface to make sure it'll keep you alive underwater. mCCR or eCCR, keep yourself:

Recite this: "Breathe for Five to Survive the Dive" Live by it.


(2) Prevent diluent from being added until you need to add diluent for keeping a breathable lung volume. You do not need to do this above 20 feet. The method you select to accomplish this is your business. Just do it.



Dave




ADV Tech Notes:

There are two types of ADV's 8in addition to the normal characterizations of "upstream and downstream"*:

(1): Suction triggered (like a second stage)

(2): Mechanically triggered (like the foot of the Meg ADV bottoming out on the counterlung when the loop collapses).



The rEvo ADV is a scuba second stage valve: It breathes great, but is difficult for some divers to sense firing, and is more susceptable to inadvertant diluent addition into the loop than any other that I have worked with. Putting in a slider is possible if you think it thru. PM if you want info.

Mark-15 ADV is a Schraeder valve, and is VERY slow to add gas and VERY hard to trigger. It's also impossible to isolate without serious rig modifications. You cut a stainless steel line and run the ends to a Whitey valve located on the side of the chassis.

The USN Mark-VI started off the type of ADV that was used on the Cis Mk-5P, then the Prism, and Meg, then the HH, etc. It's an upstream valve also using a Schraeder valve and is very simple and reliable. Inadvertant triggering in the shallows is usually mechanical, IE: triggering it with your arms as you snap on stages, etc. They should always have an isolator on them. They are the gold standard.

The ADV's in the inhale Tee fittings have all been downstream scuba regulator type valves AFAIK, bearing in mind that I have not handled an Inspo one. These have all of the potentials of a second stage regulator and should have isolators on them.

The KISS ADV is upstream and might as well not exist. I always needed to use my BOV to add diluent.
.
 
Last edited:
In my case more a "light weight" travel configuration using minimal kit because of airline excess luggage costs, stage hire & expensive overseas Helium!.


You misunderstand me, so let me re-try.

"Why have ANY ADV WITH ANYTHING active above 20 feet ever?"


Dave


.
 
Can upstream design 2nd stages free-flow (as a design irrespective of make)?

Maybe an engineer can answer (I suspect they could, but I am not sure since all modern ones I am familiar with are downstream).


The Poseidon Jetstream and X-stream are both upstream. They will not allow any freeflowing in to your mouth unless the servo-valve breaks. Instead they are fitted with an OPV in the hose connection.
However, since the Triton (discontinued) the 1.st stage was designed with an OPV built in to it instead of the hose connection, so since then there is no longer any need for OPV in the hose connection. So nowadays, if you have an OPV in the 1.st stage, its possible to use standard hoses with all Poseidons 2.nd stages. The Cyklon, which I belive was the first single hose 2.nd stage, has always been downstream.

The servo valve is all metal, also the valve seat in it self. But it's fitted to it's position with a very small and very protected o-ring. So I suppose if you scooter in to a wall, mouth first, or drag your 2.nd stage along a reef or a stoney bottom it could break during a dive and freeflow. But other than that, no - it's tight as a frogs ass.


/nils
 
On another thread:

Here's a way a (damaged) rig would have likely killed it's diver had he jumped in with 10/70.... the ADV is firing on every breath...

scary.



http://www.ccrexplorers.com/showthread.php?p=141795#post141795




Possible "Perfect Storm" in the rEvo: Three Strikes and you're out...

(1): Sensitive ADV.

(2): No ADV isolation possible.

(3): OPV at the top of the chassis... have it fail open and the bubble in the rig goes outta the top...


Result: PP02 of 0.3 at the surface... think about this if he had been on 10/70



Scary.


Dave


.
 
Last edited:
I've had hypoxic diluent leaking into the loop on my Inspo. Only noticed as I came shallow on deco. Shut-off was closed, but not working (confirmed after dive).

On bottom didn't notice anything, but as I got to 6m on ascent unit couldn't hold set-point. O2 added (lots), set-point reached but than it dropped quickly as diluent leaked into loop.

Intresting. Not actually a freeflow then, just a small leak? I've had that with the AutoAir on a 15/50 mix, hopeless to get fixed. Now replaced with inflator instead...

Were you able to service the shut off valve so it closed properly afterwards?

/nils
 
The Poseidon Jetstream and X-stream are both upstream. They will not allow any freeflowing in to your mouth unless the servo-valve breaks. Instead they are fitted with an OPV in the hose connection.
However, since the Triton (discontinued) the 1.st stage was designed with an OPV built in to it instead of the hose connection, so since then there is no longer any need for OPV in the hose connection. So nowadays, if you have an OPV in the 1.st stage, its possible to use standard hoses with all Poseidons 2.nd stages. The Cyklon, which I belive was the first single hose 2.nd stage, has always been downstream.

The servo valve is all metal, also the valve seat in it self. But it's fitted to it's position with a very small and very protected o-ring. So I suppose if you scooter in to a wall, mouth first, or drag your 2.nd stage along a reef or a stoney bottom it could break during a dive and freeflow. But other than that, no - it's tight as a frogs ass.


/nils

I've had hypoxic diluent leaking into the loop on my Inspo. Only noticed as I came shallow on deco. Shut-off was closed, but not working (confirmed after dive).

On bottom didn't notice anything, but as I got to 6m on ascent unit couldn't hold set-point. O2 added (lots), set-point reached but than it dropped quickly as diluent leaked into loop.

I looked at "RB70 ADV Maintenance Manual" and it looks upstream, but if the seat is damaged (or near end-of-useful life), I suspect it would leak same as a downstream one (not sure though and I am no expert).

See if you can source the document and have a look.

I was told by my instructor that it can leak with Trimix (same as any other ADV).

Presumably that is why the APD ADV comes with an isolator/shut-off valve (unlike the JJ and rEVO).
 
Last edited:
Penny dropped, it's those imperial units - My ADV is closed when I get to depth so would oxygen at 6m & shallower.

Shutting off ADV off the bottom gives you more feed back on loop volume & your need to add diluent when you'd not expect too (i.e. leak)

The JJ ADV doesn't look that different to APD's, looks like a slimline shut-off would easily fit & don't see the downside.

The only thing I can think of is that the diluent MAV is optional so most likely not have. So if ADV shut-off a diver could find themselves in a position where insufficient loop volume to breath, ADV not adding gas, cannot reach shut-off & no manual MAV to fall back on.

.



Post jump and down to 6 meters the only gas you need to add is oxygen.

Use your 02 manual add valve.


Open your ADV to descend below 6 meters.


The bottom line is that if you're adv is off above 6 meters you should not be adding diluent manually either.

I did add a diluent MAV right away to my JJ though so I can run ADV off on the bottom.

Dave

.
 
Last edited:
Theres plenty of armchair instruction going on here, however I think we should remember that ADV's differ dramatically from unit to unit and hence the training is also widely different.

There is no hypoxic dil in entry level (MOD1) classes

There is no hypoxic dil in Air Diluent Deco classes or AAd rec Trimix CCR classes

There is (officially) no hypoxic dil in Trimix classes (MOD2) / Normoxic trimix classes

The way a rebreather performs on decent in terms of P02 is also a function of overall loop volume and how the solenoid works with the electronics.

For example, you can put 10/50 in an evo and fire the adv all day long on the surface and the solenoid will quickly bring you up to set point. Of course you have to have your 02 turned on and have enough of it, but do you see my point?

This is 3 classes in. The user accepts additional risks. This is advanced diving and whether you use an ADV or not or hypoxic dil or not or plug it inboard / offboard / sideboard or wideboard is down to the individual as they're at this point well trained and able to tailor their set up to their diving.
 
Theres plenty of armchair instruction going on here, however I think we should remember that ADV's differ dramatically from unit to unit and hence the training is also widely different.

Agreed- when I only dived CK I could never understand why other units had ADV shutoffs as the CK required considerable negative pull before the ADV would begrudgingly begin to open, even then you could only get a good squirt of Dil by rolling the ADV underneath you to create a pressure difference. In a "normal" diving position it was as good as off when it was on!
 
A good post apart from this bit. It's a forum where people should feel free to express opinions, without been put down by so call "instructors".

.

That was not my intent and I apologize if thats how I came across. I totally agree with you.

My comment was directed at posts in this thread where 'instruction' was being given on how one should operate a rebreather. The 'advice' / comments were IMO inaccurate, out of context and not relevant to this thread, which is about a fatal accident in Finland.
 
Theres plenty of armchair instruction going on here, however I think we should remember that ADV's differ dramatically from unit to unit and hence the training is also widely different.

There is no hypoxic dil in entry level (MOD1) classes

There is no hypoxic dil in Air Diluent Deco classes or AAd rec Trimix CCR classes

There is (officially) no hypoxic dil in Trimix classes (MOD2) / Normoxic trimix classes

The way a rebreather performs on decent in terms of P02 is also a function of overall loop volume and how the solenoid works with the electronics.

For example, you can put 10/50 in an evo and fire the adv all day long on the surface and the solenoid will quickly bring you up to set point. Of course you have to have your 02 turned on and have enough of it, but do you see my point?

This is 3 classes in. The user accepts additional risks. This is advanced diving and whether you use an ADV or not or hypoxic dil or not or plug it inboard / offboard / sideboard or wideboard is down to the individual as they're at this point well trained and able to tailor their set up to their diving.




ADV off until 20 feet is taught ab-initio in Meg courses as its the safest procedure in the long term, and builds good habits at the beginning in order to need to make changes in habits as a diver progresses.

This is not "armchair instruction". It's "course standards" for an expedition level system. We do not assume that a student will stop at any level of training. We assume from the beginning that good habits developed now will work at any level of achievement.

You can do anything you like as long as nothing goes wrong. Have a problem and you want things to go well.

Divers go hypoxic near the surface for two reasons, BOTH of which have happened:

1: 02 supply does not work

2: ADV freeflows.


I really don't care how you address this risk. Just recognize the two possibilities and understand how to avoid them. The procedure I have recited is one standard. It is THE training standard set forth by ISC. If you want to do something else knock yourself out. Just understand the possible consequences of your actions.




Dave

.
 
Last edited:
Hey Dave I would respectfully add:
3 Hypoxic gas plumbed into BOV at surface/shallow.

I don't do that, but it appears some do.

My understanding of CE is that one certifies a "system", so procedures and modifications matter. For example part of the certification is an analysis of the system, looking at possible faults and their results.
 
^^

Hi Kevin,

"Indeed" on all you wrote above.


The "free flowing ADV" is a corollary to a rule I have mentioned before. "Never have an open circuit regulator available to your mouth that is unsafe to breathe". An ADV *is* an open circuit regulator. So is a BOV, so they are different branches of the same question.


The BOV question near-surface is a real one, and one I've not yet solved as I move to a FFM. It deserves study.

The most common near-surface mishap is 02 turned off. The "breathe for five to survive the dive" pre-breathe routine is 95% of the solution. The ADV routine although important is statistically less so.

As far as the training SOP, the most robust procedure available is taught by instructors teaching on the most robust rebreather built. If less robust procedures are taught on other rigs, all I can say is "be my guest". It's not what is taught by others.



Dave

.
 
Last edited:
Dave is maybe spot on focusing so much on the ADV in respect of this accident.

I am not familiar with the JJ, but from the manual it appears the ADV is on the t-piece on the inhale counterlung (and not on the exhale counterlung like the Meg).

I am so used to diving the Meg that I had entirely forgotten other rebreathers have the ADV on the inhale side (rather than the exhale side like the Meg).

I suspect the ADV injecting hypoxic diluent is much safer on the exhale side, rather than on the inhale side (since you breathe hypoxic diluent straight away if injected/leaked on the inhale hose and it does not pass over the O2 Cells... so Displays and HUD won't alert you straight away).

Any JJ diver knows exactly which of the two sides is the JJ ADV, inhale or exhale?
 
Last edited:
It's terrible to lose a diver.... and this has already been a bad month for it...

But, as we should say: :"Nothing is ever wasted, it can always be used to teach the surviors, if they will only listen to the message", so let us try:

Just a few thoughts:


Most importantly: Following the procedure of a 5 minute "all systems running" on deck pre-breathe with the solenoid bringing up the loop from 0.21 to 0.70 would reduce the number of RB mishaps by a huge percentage. This is not about the scrubber: It's about your 02 addition sytem.

The MOST important part of the statement above might be hidden, so let me clarify further:

During the prebreathe you MUST allow the solenoid to raise the PP02 to your low setpoint. You must SEE this occuring,. You do NOT want to have raised the PP02 high before the pre-breathe with the manual 02 add valve.

Sit down on the box, strap into the rig, look at the displays, and go from 0.19 to 0.70 on your handset. SIT THERE and watch the rig come up to 0.7. If it does... your system is working and the 02 is on. KIf not you have a real problem. This is the US Navy Mark-16 procedure, it's the Meg procedure, and ought to be THE eCCR procedure. My guess is that this would have prevented the case that we are discussing, based on the very slight information offered. It's just an educated guess.


The following is just a segue, taken from the above but not an observation on the JJ, but merely on diver habit patterns: I have spent the last three days with Leon, and we were discussing hybrids, etc.. and his view on them (which I share) is that they actually reduce safety: Divers get used to tuning theor 02 OFF, which allows them a chance to forget to turn it back ON.


Dave

.

This is exactly what I was taught on my Inspo Vision Mod 1, plus a couple of little extras.
 
Back
Top