Accident in Finland

Igor

Igor

Ingemar Lundgren
Herd a rumor there was a rebreather accident with fatal outcome n Finland a few weeks ago. Apparently involving a JJ CCR and the diver may have become hypoxic. Does anyone know more?
 
I agree this seems to be the norm nowadays. Something surely not positive for the community...

Cheers
Dimitris
 
From what i understand the oxygen bottle was either closed or empty. The diver was only underwater for 5-10min before he passed away. Is this correct? It also says that diving is not allowed in the mine and that another diver died there in 1998.
This is a terrible tragedy. Makes all of us reflect on the dangers of diving CCR.

Translated by google translate.

Divers Association has received information on 3/2/2013 in Eastern Finland of a fatal scuba diving accident. Police carried out the preliminary investigation and submitted the data collected to the relatives.

According to police, an experienced diver, was beginning to dive in a closed-loop device. The device was a mixture of gas and oxygen tanks at a gas contained diving apparatus for dispensing and recycle the diver to breathe. Device is controlled by a computer, the operation of which, in turn diver monitors a variety of data and on the basis of the possible warnings. Police information on the equipment, second, pure oxygen, the tank was attached to an accident.
The world has taken place in diving accidents in a closed-loop device, which leaves the diving oxygen tank has been closed, empty, or the oxygen supply has been a problem. This is usually caused by an accident been that the diver only to inhale the gas mixture of the second container. Deep dive second container contains a gas mixture of helium and nitrogen in addition only a small amount of oxygen. Low oxygen levels in the long term to reduce the degree of consciousness leading to coma. Diving The devices have built-in warning systems to prevent this type of incident.
Eastern Finland 03/02/2013 An accident operation of the device or a diver performing routine checks before diving is not yet available in the data. The actual cause of the accident is also still unclear. Divers' Association has been providing expert advice to the police that the analysis of rebreather.
Divers Association Scuba Diving and Safety Committee appointed accident investigation team will collect and analyze information about Finland and Finnish sukellusonnettomuuksista.Suomessa occurred on the average 2.7 scuba diving deaths per year, about 40'000 per enthusiasts. Accident data collected by the police and delivered to their relatives. Divers Association statistics such information received from voluntary reports. Information is collected from education to employment, as well as the development of education, and cooperation with other Nordic diving organizations.
 
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This is sad especially if it was a problem with O2 supply (Empty or turned off).
After RF3 I made my own new checklist that I wrote in my wetnotes, in hopes that because I wrote my own I would use it more diligently. Just a short while after I was doing some trimix diving and had put my rebreather together with the checklist. I got in the water and had a gear problem. I aborted the dive to fix the gear problem and got out and fixed the issue. I then decided to do a shallow easy dive instead of the trimix dive. I got back in and when I saw my HUD flash red realized I had gotten in with the tanks off (I had turned the tanks off to fix the earlier issue and had not repeated my checklist (Which I should have known better especially after the recent talks of checklists at RF3)) I quickly turned the tanks on and had one of those humbling experiences about the importance of checklists. Luckily mine was just a humbling experience without a tragic ending. Since then I have been even more diligent about pre-dive checks. But I SHOULD have been more diligent even without the experience.

I guess what I am getting at is that Checklists are great for 90% of the time but with this type of situation (Which has happened to many times) they are not the only answer and that there are some rebreather designs that could be beneficial.
1. I wish every rebreather had a vibrating alarm (Like the Hammerhead, Sentinel, Poseidon and Explorer Sport). I think there is no way you could not notice a vibrating alarm going off which would alert you to look at your handset or bail out.
2. An audible alarm is the next best thing, but far to often I see people who don't hear it which is why I still wish every rebreather had a vibrating alarm.
3. The other option is to have some sort of leaky valve. (Currently none of my rereathers do) This is definitely an argument for a Hybrid type rebreather.

No oxygen on the surface is especially concerning when using a smithers code type HUD. With Smithers code if you are on the surface with a setpoint of .7 the HUD will be flashing red 3 times. (Don't get me wrong I think Smithers code is really smart. A way with just LEDS to know your actual PO2 by your HUD on each individual cell, it's brilliant)
But the diver becomes conditioned to seeing red flashes and it be ok. (As opposed to a setpoint style HUD where Red=Bad and Green=Good)

So when the PO2 drops the HUD flashed Red more often then normal. This is not as attention grabbing as other designs because the diver is used to seeing flashing red.

I know that even without these designs there are ways to dive the rebreathers safe such as running it as an O2 breather above 6m etc. I am just making some humble observations.

This is a sad situation, I hope that with checklists, team protocols, rebreather designs, and more knowledge we (as an industry) can eliminate more of these tragic accidents.
 
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Michael Thornton said:
1. I wish every rebreather had a vibrating alarm (Like the Hammerhead, Sentinel, Poseidon and Explorer Sport). I think there is no way you could not notice a vibrating alarm going off which would alert you to look at your handset or bail out.

So when the PO2 drops the HUD flashed Red more often then normal. This is not as attention grabbing as other designs because the diver is used to seeing flashing red.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, I once had a dive where my solenoid battery failed as I was ascending from a shallow dive with a ppO2 of 0.7 on the bottom, about 10m. The ppO2 dropped to below 0.2 as I swam into 1m deep water, I didn't notice the 8 red flashes, but did check my handset and realised.

The HUD is excellent for running the unit if you lose your computer, I had that once too due to batteries, but I would love a small vibrating warning I can attach to BOV/mask/genitals, anything to catch my attention.

Incidentally I have some problems with SAFT batteries, it is not uncommon that I get low battery warnings on batteries that have done only one or two short dives.
 
You bring up a good discussion. I would be inclined to agree with you on vibration and audio alarms. There is one pit fall though in my opinion. The diver will probably become accustomed to listening for the audio or vibration and may not pay as much attention to the HUD and handset. The vibration or audio can fail. That would be the argument against these kind of warning devices anyway. In any case i think vibration would probably be better as audio could be ignored easier. Redundant vibration alarm?

Are we trying to complicate things to much with over engineering? Is it a better approach enforcing strict protocols in training and check lists? You bring up a very good example where check lists might fail also.



"I guess what I am getting at is that Checklists are great for 90% of the time but with this type of situation (Which has happened to many times) they are not the only answer and that there are some rebreather designs that could be beneficial.
1. I wish every rebreather had a vibrating alarm (Like the Hammerhead, Sentinel, Poseidon and Explorer Sport). I think there is no way you could not notice a vibrating alarm going off which would alert you to look at your handset or bail out.
2. An audible alarm is the next best thing, but far to often I see people who don't hear it which is why I still wish every rebreather had a vibrating alarm.
3. The other option is to have some sort of leaky valve. (Currently none of my rereathers do) This is definitely an argument for a Hybrid type rebreather."
 
Michael Thornton said:
1. I wish every rebreather had a vibrating alarm (Like the Hammerhead, Sentinel, Poseidon and Explorer Sport). I think there is no way you could not notice a vibrating alarm going off which would alert you to look at your handset or bail out.
2. An audible alarm is the next best thing, but far to often I see people who don't hear it which is why I still wish every rebreather had a vibrating alarm.
3. The other option is to have some sort of leaky valve. (Currently none of my rereathers do) This is definitely an argument for a Hybrid type rebreather.

No oxygen on the surface is especially concerning when using a smithers code type HUD. With Smithers code if you are on the surface with a setpoint of .7 the HUD will be flashing red 3 times. (Don't get me wrong I think Smithers code is really smart. A way with just LEDS to know your actual PO2 by your HUD on each individual cell, it's brilliant)
But the diver becomes conditioned to seeing red flashes and it be ok. (As opposed to a setpoint style HUD where Red=Bad and Green=Good)

So when the PO2 drops the HUD flashed Red more often then normal. This is not as attention grabbing as other designs because the diver is used to seeing flashing red.

I know that even without these designs there are ways to dive the rebreathers safe such as running it as an O2 breather above 6m etc. I am just making some humble observations.
Click to expand...

Good points. I posted on here about a near miss with a hypoxic loop on a surface swim and one of the questions asked was didn't you see the HUD flashing red? I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I was used to it always flashing red on a setpoint of 0.7 so it's not immediately attention grabbing on a subconcious level, you need to count the flashes to see how low you are. It's the only time I've missed the inspo audible alarm set to go off at 0.4 .
 
Mike Ferguson said:
Good points. I posted on here about a near miss with a hypoxic loop on a surface swim and one of the questions asked was didn't you see the HUD flashing red? I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I was used to it always flashing red on a setpoint of 0.7 so it's not immediately attention grabbing on a subconcious level, you need to count the flashes to see how low you are. It's the only time I've missed the inspo audible alarm set to go off at 0.4 .
Click to expand...

Yes - but swimming in the surface, in current and maybe some sea, would you notice the vibrating alarm?
I know - I would not do it, maybe an sound alarm.

Solution ?
 
Igor said:
You bring up a good discussion. I would be inclined to agree with you on vibration and audio alarms. There is one pit fall though in my opinion. The diver will probably become accustomed to listening for the audio or vibration and may not pay as much attention to the HUD and handset. The vibration or audio can fail. That would be the argument against these kind of warning devices anyway. In any case i think vibration would probably be better as audio could be ignored easier. Redundant vibration alarm?

Are we trying to complicate things to much with over engineering? Is it a better approach enforcing strict protocols in training and check lists? You bring up a very good example where check lists might fail also.



"I guess what I am getting at is that Checklists are great for 90% of the time but with this type of situation (Which has happened to many times) they are not the only answer and that there are some rebreather designs that could be beneficial.
1. I wish every rebreather had a vibrating alarm (Like the Hammerhead, Sentinel, Poseidon and Explorer Sport). I think there is no way you could not notice a vibrating alarm going off which would alert you to look at your handset or bail out.
2. An audible alarm is the next best thing, but far to often I see people who don't hear it which is why I still wish every rebreather had a vibrating alarm.
3. The other option is to have some sort of leaky valve. (Currently none of my rereathers do) This is definitely an argument for a Hybrid type rebreather."
Click to expand...

Hi Igor,

The "DIVA" has been in use now for over 10 years, and to my direct knowledge, has warned several divers under various conditions, and has been directly involved in saving 3 divers lives. It's one of the reasons other companies have been adopting it, once they see how easy it is to work with us on licensing our patent.

I imagine a day when it will be as ubiquitous in CCR's as Air Bags are on cars.

Kevin.
 
Robert Månsson said:
Yes - but swimming in the surface, in current and maybe some sea, would you notice the vibrating alarm?
I know - I would not do it, maybe an sound alarm.

Solution ?
Click to expand...

I guess anything is possible. I think it would be difficult. The vibrating alarm is on the mouthpiece so it rattles your jaw pretty good. Checking to make sure the vibrator is working is part of my pre-dive sequence. (True that doesn't mean it couldn't break u/w)

Another Design feature I left off my original list is a checklist in the handset. Such as the Sentinel and explorer sport have. Or even a simple one like the inspo/evo have. Those at least cover turning on the tanks. I know it is debated but I am in favor of checklists built into the electronics.
 
Robert Månsson said:
Yes - but swimming in the surface, in current and maybe some sea, would you notice the vibrating alarm?
I know - I would not do it, maybe an sound alarm.

Solution ?
Click to expand...

in less than 6m no need for alarm,s nice to have , pressing the green button solves all that , put you still need to turn on the o2 , and know its o2 in that cylinfer ,

green button and if you dont have one , get one ,

just my thinking but we seem to be killing are self,s the same old few ways
 
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Mr fish said:
in less than 6m no need for alarm,s nice to have , pressing the green button solves all that , put you still need to rurn on the o2 , and know its o2 in that cylinfer ,

green button and if you dont have one , get one ,

just my thinking
Click to expand...

I agree that helps. This is why I mentioned that in my original post
Michael Thornton said:
I know that even without these designs there are ways to dive the rebreathers safe such as running it as an O2 breather above 6m etc. I am just making some humble observations.

This is a sad situation, I hope that with checklists, team protocols, rebreather designs, and more knowledge we (as an industry) can eliminate more of these tragic accidents.
Click to expand...

But a good HUD, Good practice of running it with O2 and having a Vibrating alarm would be the safest IMHO.

There are also more and more rebreathers entering the recreational market. And thanks to PADI they can not have an O2 manual add.
 
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jptaylor9 said:
Having dived a Sentinel, I have to say I couldn't feel the vibrating HUD thru my jaw. But the flashing red HUD got my attention (why I don't like Smithers/Meg type HUD's)
Click to expand...

Interesting, Thanks for sharing. Obviously this is why having a vibrating HUD does not replace other skills a diver should regularly practice. such as checking handsets, looking at your HUD etc. It is just one more thing trying to keep you alive.
 
I had a DIVA hud on my Hammer Head for the Inspo and its very good at getting your attention.

Personaly I just avoid the need be staying on 100% 02 on the surface.

In a bag in my shead i have a failed DIVA Hud for a HH unit.

When it comes to critical points in diving a CCR I prefer things that are more blatent than the possabuility of a warning device functioning when it should.


On the issue of the 02 that is totaly specific to the JJ. I have had the 02 hose and the diluient hose both (at diferent times) get caught between the cylinder and the unit and crushed to the point they wont pass gas when I did up the cam band.

First time it hapened on the 02 feed i thaught the solinoid had failed, but it just wasn't getting any gas.

Probably my fault because of my hose routing, but its worth considering when thinking about possable causes of hypoxia on a JJ



ATB

Mark
 
The shearwater HUD is capable of flashing with amber color. It does this on po2 1.0. Why not configure the HUD so it flashes amber between 0.5-1.0 Red from 0.5 and under and green above 1.0?. Just some ideas. Have not thought this through, just thinking out load. Might be implications with this.

I think the shearwater works great though and so far have always noticed as soon as it turns red. But there might be situations especially at or near surface where it would be easier to miss. During the dive you get accustomed to 3 blinks of green and i find it really easy to spot if it deviates from this.

+1 one Mark Chase comment to. Having a protocol where you bump up the o2 manually on the surface to as near 1.0 as you can get makes very much sense. I do this as well and it somewhat takes away the "problem" with getting accustomed to blinking red. An additional benifit is that if you continue pumping in 02 when the lung collapses to eliminate the ADV from triggering towards reaching 6m you can also easily do a current limiting /MV check at 6m as you are on 100% o2 when you reach there. Then you flush down the loop with dil before you decent further and get another system test done for "free". This is a straight forward routine to follow.

And check lists can not be underestimated!

The question remains, why did this diver not notice he was hypoxic? Was the HUD working and turned on? We don´t know.
 
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Igor said:
The shearwater HUD is capable of flashing with amber color. It does this on po2 1.0. Why not configure the HUD so it flashes amber between 0.5-1.0 Red from 0.5 and under and green above 1.0?. Just some ideas. Have not thought this through, just thinking out load. Might be implications with this.
Click to expand...

Many divers especially the older ones find it difficult to notice the amber as being a different color. I can see the difference but maybe in another 20 years I may not be able to. :xeye:
 
checklist?

What about using your handset?

Am I missing something, you monitor either your handset or HUD.(I prefer handset, only use the if my hands occupied)
 
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