First breather

[matt]

I dont think it is even being a tight arse, for me it's about not having someone take the piss.

I think there is an element of how risk is viewed too. Instructors will tell you a crossover is essential whereas a user may say helpful. Personally, I enjoyed working out how best to run my unit. Someone walked me through the set up and I had manuals on both units. But on both my Mk15 and CK the fun was in working out how they dived. I really enjoyed exploring what each unit did and I think I learned a lot more.

Alternative way of putting it is that most divers won't simply fork out money unless they think it really necessary.

Or perhaps that's because I hail from Yorkshire!

 

[matt]

If instructors just wnt ahead and told you:
Read the Manual
Take a buddy along for the first dives with the new unit
Have fun learning the minor differences

They wouln't be able to either ear or have a roof over their heads.
Sleeping in the bed of a 25 year old pickup sucks when it is raining or snowing too.

This is what I did moving from Classic to Vision.

Instructors need paying students and the various rebreather training organizations have understood this from the beginning of the millenium.
Of course an instructor won't let you on his charted boat unless you have whatever certification that he wants to see or is willing to teach you on the trip.
That way some instuctor has had you as a cash cow on whatever RB that you take along.

I did my mod3 with the same outfit that I did mod1 with, and got a good price so was happy, I would be less happy nowadays as the number of opportunities to pay for a course seem to have dramatically increased!

Matt.

 

[michael_fisch]

My point is there are some who likely don't need any training and there are those who think they don't need training. Who decides?

That's the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship.
In a democracy Murphy and Darwin try to clean up the gene pool, and in a dictatorship somebody else decides what behavior is OK.
Unfortunately, just having brains isn't good enough. Diving a rebreather for the first time without supervision has already killed one Nobel Prize winner.

Michael

 

[Matt1634]

I suppose unit age is where the compound effects of years of neglect may take their toll. If I had owned the unit for that long then I know how I have maintained it, but as I'm considering buying a unit that old I am inheriting 10 to 15 year worth of someone elses unknown service schedules.

That said an investment of 1k into new loom, controllers, etc would leave me something basically as new aside from chassis.

It seems the general consensus is that a bov, whilst not essential is a good to have, followed by a hud - with the proviso that having a hud should not replace having good process of knowing your po2 and should not be relied upon as a sole indicator.

Then toys, adv, flowstop, built in deco, fourth cell checkers etc etc.

On the basis that I am deliberately going into this on a budget for 12 -24 months, I am going to totally disregard all the toys from my buy list (if the unit ends up with some then so be it but it won't influence the purchase). Therefore a classic out if service or an early vision seem good solutions, factory only 200 miles from me, good supply of parts and units very similar to those I trained on - irrespective of whether I elect to do a crossover.

Tried and tested with the issues well known, and if I did end up with a classic needing more than average maintenance that would perhaps be invaluable as a training introduction and hands on understanding of the units for the future, even if there would be some short term frustration from time to time (considering the diving I will limit myself too I can always bring my twinset and dive that if the unit was a no dive that day).

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

 

[Mark Chase]

Mark, I don't think anyone is suggesting that a Mod 1 should or would have to be retaken. In most cases, a simple unit specific crossover is all that is necessary. The basics of CCR related science, techniques, physiology, physics etc, etc. doesn't change from unit to unit. What does change are the unit specific protocols, procedures, and subtle differences in skills between units. Obviously, some people have an easier time learning and internalizing the differences between units, but this is certainly not the norm. After having taught on numerous CCR units over the years and having taught dozens and dozens of crossovers, I can honestly say that the thought of most people trying to do this on their own without some level of crossover instruction scares me to death. (myself included!)

Warm regards,
Randy

Randy all the cross overs I was offered were a full retake of Mod1

thats KISS, rEvo & JJ

Who does official one day cross overs with trimix cert cards?


I did a cross over for the JJ as a non standard one day deal was on the table and I am now qualified to dive AIR???? on a JJ? If i want to upgrade to trimix aparently I need another course

Sure, it is possible through reading and experimentation to pick up a lot of the differences, but is the cost savings of a 3 day crossover really worth the risk to the average CCR diver? Personally, I think the risk is too great for most people.

Three days???? My god I would run out of things to say about a Inspo diver swapping over to a JJ unit in about three hours


ATB

Mark

 

[Mark Chase]

I think the reluctance, Randy, is instructors want to charge £500-£700 for cross-overs and basically there isn't anything of substance to teach for the most part. Divers are tight-arses, never forget that!

Cheers
Matt.

Divers have jobs that require time off and wives that consider a "three day training course" to be little more than a boys holiday away.

And I have spent 10s of 000s on diveing so 500-700 isnt reely the issue

Its value for money

ATB

Mark

 

[Mark Chase]

I have a friend who owned a dive charter buisiness. He callled me up and said he had this guy on the boat was diving rebreather and wanted a rebreather guy to buddy up with. He was telling me about the thousands of dives this guy had as a navy seal or whatever. When he told me the name alarm bells went off. I knew this guy from online forums and from a personal dealing with him. I also knew this guy had approached an instructor friend of mine looking for a x-over class. He said he had been trained by so and so on another unit and wanted to x-over to the meg. When my friend called so and so about this guy he said he had never heard of him and did not train him on anything. SO my friend declined and said he would get the word out that he was a liar.
So this guy is on my friend's boat, I warned him to be careful with this guy but didn't go into much more detail. I declined to buddy up with him. Next day I get a call from my friend, they had to take this guy to the hospital. He was rescued at the surface in full resiratory arrest after taking a massive CO2 hit on his rebreather. He survived after being placed on hyperbaric O2 for a number of hours. It turns out he had purchased a unit on ebay. Not trained and unaware this unit has the early DSVs recalled due to mushroom valve problems (an instructor would have picked that up) he tried to dive the unit with a completely compromised mushroom valve. This individual has likely hung up his fins or at least his keyboard since I haven't heard from him since the accident.
My point is there are some who likely don't need any training and there are those who think they don't need training. Who decides?

Sounds like a poodle in a microwave story but just assuming its all strieght you totaly miss the point.

ALL ccr have mushroom valves that need checking.

This chap had no training on a CCR?

Thats not a cross over incident

I have dived 10 or so diferent units and the only one that blew my mind trying to work out how was the ED04 PSCR

I am qualified Mod1 and Mod3 on a Inspiration Classic and thers no cross over requirement to the Inspo Vision but I still have no idea how to operate the display on a Vision not the temp stick or the alarm settings???

ALL the CCR i have ever dived had something in common.

3 or more PP02 cells

a bottle of 02

Some method of getting 02 into the loop

A bottle of diluient

A scrubber

Now I need to read the manual to find out how to program a rEvo dream or a Vision hand set, but in terms of actualy diveing any unit? They are all the same.

I had the DILL adv free flow at 65m on my rEvo first time I dived a 70m dive and it was down to IP setting. I was told if id done a cross over course id have been taught this? I was amazed it wasent in the manual? I was laughing when TWO divers with TWO diferent instructors told me they had NOT been taught this as part of their cross over.


Reguardless the protacols for dealing with a dill free flow were exactly the same on my new rEvo as they were on my previous 3 CCR, so it wasen't reelly a big deal.


ATB

Mark

 

[wedivebc]

Sounds like a poodle in a microwave story but just assuming its all strieght you totaly miss the point.

Since I actually saw the exploded poodle it's kindof first hand story here.

I didn't miss the point at all I was making a counterpoint

My point is there are some who likely don't need any training and there are those who think they don't need training. Who decides?

I did lots of CCR diving outside the standards of conventional training. The traing system we have in place now is pretty new and on our side of the pond cowboyism still runs rampant despite the swarms of lawyers circling rebreather divers like buzzards. Remember teledyne cells? They were great weren't they?
I don't disagree with you about training most of the people on this forum are likely very intelligent.

 

[Mark Chase]

Alternative way of putting it is that most divers won't simply fork out money unless they think it really necessary.

Or perhaps that's because I hail from Yorkshire!

I forked out for MOD3 and found out id totaly wasted it only after the course was over.

Basicly four days of the instructor asking questions any trimix qualified diver could answer and doing skills any experianced decompresion diver could do and diving a CCR like any experianced MOD1 CCR diver could


Then we sat the SAME paper i sat for OC Trimix that didnt have a single CCR related question in it.

Oh and we used the OC trimix manual for the course????


I remember clearly being told that unlike OC we needed to carry a bottom bailout gas in addition to the decompreson gas and that seeing as CCR gave us the potential to greatly extend our bottom time we would need to carry more gas......


I remember thinking reely? No shit? And I took four days off work and shelled out the thick end of £1000 in fees logistics and accomadation to be told that ?????

ATB

Mark

 

[matt]

I forked out for MOD3 and found out id totaly wasted it only after the course was over.

Basicly four days of the instructor asking questions any trimix qualified diver could answer and doing skills any experianced decompresion diver could do and diving a CCR like any experianced MOD1 CCR diver could


Then we sat the SAME paper i sat for OC Trimix that didnt have a single CCR related question in it.

Oh and we used the OC trimix manual for the course????


I remember clearly being told that unlike OC we needed to carry a bottom bailout gas in addition to the decompreson gas and that seeing as CCR gave us the potential to greatly extend our bottom time we would need to carry more gas......


I remember thinking reely? No shit? And I took four days off work and shelled out the thick end of £1000 in fees logistics and accomadation to be told that ?????

ATB

Mark

I paid £250 and got Mod3, BnB accommodation, 5 days hard boat diving out of Plymouth. I thought this a good deal.

Matt.

 

[Mark Chase]

Since I actually saw the exploded poodle it's kindof first hand story here.

I didn't miss the point at all I was making a counterpoint


I did lots of CCR diving outside the standards of conventional training. The traing system we have in place now is pretty new and on our side of the pond cowboyism still runs rampant despite the swarms of lawyers circling rebreather divers like buzzards. Remember teledyne cells? They were great weren't they?
I don't disagree with you about training most of the people on this forum are likely very intelligent.

Yeh but, kid who gets in car with no previous experiance or training and has a crash, is hardly news

I can offer a story of a mushroom valve failure related C02 hit from a very experianced Trimix CCR diver who was fulley Mod1 & 3 qualified on the unit he was diveing?

Teledine Cells were arguably the best CCR cells available at the time but some arse sued them and they pulled out of the CCR market.

In the UK there is no formal need for ANY training on ANY form of scuba equipment including a CCR. NO one will ever check your cert card before a dive trip if you turn up on a dive day boat

However when i travel we suddenly get dive police deciding we need loads of meeningless paper before we are allowed to dive. For the most part I am fine with only letting certified divers do dives to their cert level, but I am not fine with bogus certification requirements like cross over courses.

I never did a twinset course, dry suit course, scooter diveing course, underwater photography course or a masters degree in "how to fit a pee valve" and I am NOT happy about being forced to to a bloody pointless cross over unless I decide I want too.

The day I see a CCR I cant figure out how to dive SAFLEY on my own, is the day I quit because dementure is obviously setting in

ATB

Mark

 

[Mark Chase]

I paid £250 and got Mod3, BnB accommodation, 5 days hard boat diving out of Plymouth. I thought this a good deal.

Matt.

Theres a time and a place for dodgy instructors and MOD3 is one of them

ATB

Mark

 

[wedivebc]

ALL ccr have mushroom valves that need checking.

See even you don't know what you don't know.
Early Optima divers found that the mushroom valve seats were faulty because the spokes were too wide for the density of the valve material. When a diver jumped off a dive platform, even though he had checked his DSV prior to diving would find the hydrostatic pressure of the counterlungs impacting the water would sometimes push the soft valve through the seat. This would have been discussed had the diver taken a x-over class.

 

[steve6690]

See even you don't know what you don't know.
Early Optima divers found that the mushroom valve seats were faulty because the spokes were too wide for the density of the valve material. When a diver jumped off a dive platform, even though he had checked his DSV prior to diving would find the hydrostatic pressure of the counterlungs impacting the water would sometimes push the soft valve through the seat. This would have been discussed had the diver taken a x-over class.

And doing a course prevents this from happening ?

 

[matt]

Theres a time and a place for dodgy instructors and MOD3 is one of them

ATB

Mark

 

[Mr fish]

I paid £250 and got Mod3, BnB accommodation, 5 days hard boat diving out of Plymouth. I thought this a good deal.

Matt.

I hope you got a Bj each night for that sort of money lol
I'm still thinking about doing mod8 , lol still looking for a live guru to teach me ,

 

[Mark Chase]

See even you don't know what you don't know.
Early Optima divers found that the mushroom valve seats were faulty because the spokes were too wide for the density of the valve material. When a diver jumped off a dive platform, even though he had checked his DSV prior to diving would find the hydrostatic pressure of the counterlungs impacting the water would sometimes push the soft valve through the seat. This would have been discussed had the diver taken a x-over class.

One would hope the emergancy recall notice plastered across all foroums and posted out to all owners would have sorted this out before somone got killed

Its not the job of a crossover course to correct manufacturing errors

That said the issue would be resolved / avoided with a flow check once in the water just like we were taught on Inspo MOD1

On ALL my CCR you hear the reasurig click clack of the mushroom valves opening and closing. If they sound odd, you do a flow check

ATB

Mark

 

[Matt1634]

Flowcheck is part of the inspo checklist I was given, on each assembly. This may be my naivety but isn't this along with pos neg test, changing sorb, checking and replacing cells, analysing gas....bubble check at a couple of metres haha. Isnt that just part of using a rebreather?

If you elect to miss these checks and maintenance and something goes wrong then surely that can't be the fault of a missing crossover, or unit issue, it's attributable to diver attitude.

When diving my twinset I don't have to check I have attached my first stages, I could just look at them and see if they look ok, or I can physically grab them check, given them a tug on assembly and then repeat everything as I don the rig.

Noone has to do, or not do, anything but your choices will then present a level of risk which you have accepted.



Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

 

[matt]

Flowcheck is part of the inspo checklist I was given, on each assembly. This may be my naivety but isn't this along with pos neg test, changing sorb, checking and replacing cells, analysing gas....bubble check at a couple of metres haha. Isnt that just part of using a rebreather?

On more recent Vision software the mushroom valve test is included in the start-up check you are prompted to do. I do mine during assembly, however. None of the ones you list are specific to the inspo. You missed a few though ;-)

Matt.

 

[Matt1634]

Haha was more a few examples to support the point than provide a checklist. Which I doubt anyone on here needs!

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk