What's going on here? IS this a mistake or Dirty Pool?????

[ebt]

Hmmm its actually quite common for retail/distribution channels to have a policy of not supporting grey market imports....

I must admit I havent bothered following the exact numbers, but to suggest that a distributor shouldnt factor in local cost of business (liability management etc) is beyond silly. If YOU as the end consumer dont agree with it, why should the distributor take the risk? You can voice your concerns, but the distributor/brand are surely in their rights to stay in business?

If you disagree with the policy so much, nothing stops you assuming the risk yourself by travelling to buy locally. You know, like so many europeans have been doing for ages with high end dive lights, scooters etc etc.

 

[JONT]

Hmmm its actually quite common for retail/distribution channels to have a policy of not supporting grey market imports....

I must admit I havent bothered following the exact numbers, but to suggest that a distributor shouldnt factor in local cost of business (liability management etc) is beyond silly. If YOU as the end consumer dont agree with it, why should the distributor take the risk? You can voice your concerns, but the distributor/brand are surely in their rights to stay in business?

If you disagree with the policy so much, nothing stops you assuming the risk yourself by travelling to buy locally. You know, like so many europeans have been doing for ages with high end dive lights, scooters etc etc.

Again everyone is looking sight of one fact the MANUFACTURER of the UNIT SET THE RETAIL PRICE FOR THE EXPORT UNIT?

Traveling and buying locally doesn't make it a grey market purchase, the meaning of grey market is being erroneously used in your post.

Cheers

 

[Superlyte27]

Grey market would be like me buying a scubapro regulator from a dealer not authorized to deal scubapro from scubapro. This JJ purchase wouldn't be grey market as I would buy from an authorized dealer, albeit not in this country. At least for the sake of this argument anyway. I have no intentions of buying at the moment. Maybe when the Euro drops another 10%

 

[kwinter]

I have two friends over seas frequently. What's stopping someone like Jont from handing those friends 15k and saying, "hey, bring me back two JJ's"

To answer the question, you have to be JJ certified to buy the unit. But you lost credibility with the first sentence. Two friends? Are you sure you're not exaggerating? :bondage:

 

[ebt]

ok, semantics. Lets try another version, its not uncommon for a vendor/distributor in a market to refuse to manage warranty returns free of charge on any item that they havent imported to that market. As a consumer thats not great, but its the risk you take by bypassing as a personal import or grey market purchase.

Again everyone is looking sight of one fact the MANUFACTURER of the UNIT SET THE RETAIL PRICE FOR THE EXPORT UNIT?

Back on topic, I have to admit Im getting confused, in post 1 you said that the JJ was available from the manufacturers website at a price of X (which doesnt include VAT, typically ~20% to europeans) and available locally from a distributor at a price of Y (which is presumably higher to cover local cost of doing business, plus import taxes etc).

Now you refer to

the MANUFACTURER of the UNIT SET THE RETAIL PRICE FOR THE EXPORT UNIT?

.... its all a bit confusing.

Am I mis-reading this?

PS. Assuming i could buy the export light version, it'd cost me as an end consumer Eur8133 (including tax & excluding shipping). Thats ~ USD 9300. Not so far away from the US pricing you've quoted. If i was importing to a market with a litigation culture, I'd be adding a price premium.

 

[lizardland]

I really dont get what the problem is.

The North American dealer sells the unit at the price he sets.

You can either buy from him or go elsewhere.

How is this different to pretty much any other product?

The guy is running a business, not a be nice to strangers charity. He'll either sell units or he wont. You'll either buy from him or you wont.

Really... who cares?

 

[Igor P]

I really dont get what the problem is.

The North American dealer sells the unit at the price he sets.

You can either buy from him or go elsewhere.

How is this different to pretty much any other product?

The guy is running a business, not a be nice to strangers charity. He'll either sell units or he wont. You'll either buy from him or you wont.

Really... who cares?

I could not agree more than I agree with last two posts - lizardland and ebt posts.

Igor P

Sent from my PAP4500DUO using Tapatalk 2

 

[Doomanic]

MSRP = Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price, it's a suggestion, not an instruction.

TBH, if I were the importer, I'd rather you didn't buy a unit from me, you sound like really hard work.

 

[silentbob]

I think the rebreather market in the US should have it's pricing strictly regulated by the government. And furthermore, the government should decide for you which rebreather you will have.

"From each according to their means, to each according to their ability" :thumbsup:

Yeah.. that'd be great.

;0)

 

[hoffi]

As long I can think I find it quite surreal how german cars usually cost quite a bit more in its homecountry than in the US, can you fix that too pls while your at it, depending on brand and model its 10-30%...and way too much paperwork to re-import a Porsche from the US.

Thanks,
Hoffi

 

[Larry7895]

Hey Jont, it's been an interesting thread, now I'd be interested to hear the other side.

You spent a lot of energy asking the importer to explain his practices and motives, why don't you explain yours, is it a self serving one where you are you trying to get a cheaper unit for yourself without all "the hassle" which you don't seem to want to pay for or undertake yourself OR are you trying to tackle all of the injustices in the world one by one? If the later, there are a few more that should rank higher up on your list I think. BTW I thought the U.S. was land of the free and home of the brave - surely the importer is "free" to set whatever price he wants and punters can be "brave" enough to go direct if they want or does the anthem need to change?

I'd also be pretty surprised if the importers agreement with JJ doesn't cover pricing pretty comprehensively, so unless they fire him, by implication they are in agreement with his practices. Seeing as you put so much stock in the manufacturer setting the MSRP, perhaps you should take it up with them direct and explain how they should better run their business to your benefit?

Regards
Larry


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Dr.Alex]

Hi Jont,

The US is actually one of the cheapest developed countries to live in when it comes to consumer goods (and most other things as well). Much lower sales tax as well.
So if you want to complain - perhaps you want to compare prices of a number of other consumer goods in the US vs prices in EU or Switzerland where everything is even more expensive.

As an example, a Jeep Grand Cherokee in US starts starts at 29K USD, in Switzerland starts at 57400 CHF = 61K USD. Fair? Try some other ones and let me know in whose favour the prices compare (petrol, electronics, clothing, etc etc). Usually nothing to do even with where they are manufactured or assembled (most often even China). An iPhone cost much more in China than in the US, even though they are assembled there. Fair? Let me write a few letters to Chrysler and Apple and see what comes back .

I guess in US the CCRs are offered at market price compared to supply and demand versus other products and prices thus vary all across the world - they are not just using an exchange rate.

BTW you will find though that the JJ is an amazing unit - and plus or minus 20% it is worth in my view EVERY PENNY.


Take care and enjoy a JJ!

 

[kwinter]

As an example, a Jeep Grand Cherokee in US starts starts at 29K USD, in Switzerland starts at 57400 CHF = 61K USD. Fair? Try some other ones and let me know in whose favour the prices compare (petrol, electronics, clothing, etc etc). Usually nothing to do even with where they are manufactured or assembled (most often even China). An iPhone cost much more in China than in the US, even though they are assembled there. Fair? Let me write a few letters to Chrysler and Apple and see what comes back .

I don't think you understand the issue that Jon is addressing at all. It is not about the JJ being too expensive. It is not about it being more expensive in the US than it is in Europe. It is about the fluctuation in price (or lack thereof) when exchange rates change. Let's take your example of the Jeep. Forget about it being the equivalent of $61K in Switzerland versus $29K in the US. That is not the complaint. Accept that as a cost of buying an overseas product. The price of the car is listed as $61K USD. So it costs you 57400 CHF to buy the 61000 USD needed to purchase the car. Remember that the price of the car is actually given in USD, not CHF. Now the dollar begins a freefall against the franc. Suddenly you can get $61K USD for the bargain rate of only 55000 CHF. So you take your 55K CHF to the car dealer and ask to buy a car. But the dealer says, "I'm sorry. The price is 57400 CHF, which is now equivalent to $64K USD. He just raised the price by $3000 USD, even though the listed price is $61000. His cost has not changed, and he is now importing the cars for less CHF, but he is not passing that exchange rate savings on to the buyer, despite the price of the car being listed in USD.

It is not about the JJ being more expensive than other rebreathers, or being more expensive in the USA. It is about the price being listed in Euro yet being held constant in USD, essentially raising the price to the buyer and harming sales and the reputation of the manufacturer. Curt has now explained that his deal with JJ was in USD, not in Euro. And he has now dropped the price from $10,250 to $9,000. That is still a higher premium in terms of Euro than it was before the exchange rate dropped, but certainly not as much as before JonT started this thread. It is NOT about a JJ costing more than 6778 Euro in the US. Curt spent the time and effort to become the exclusive distributor for JJ in the US. It is about the premium over that price increasing as the exchange rate falls because a supposedly Euro-priced item is being treated as a dollar-priced item.

Jon has enough rebreathers to last several lifetimes. Whether or not he wants to add a JJ to his arsenal, he has every right to question the pricing policy. Think of how much he has already saved people here by getting the price dropped from $10,250 to $9,000. Of course that won't make Curt happy.

 

[Bobjr]

I don't think you understand the issue that Jon is addressing at all. It is not about the JJ being too expensive. It is not about it being more expensive in the US than it is in Europe. It is about the fluctuation in price (or lack thereof) when exchange rates change. Let's take your example of the Jeep. Forget about it being the equivalent of $61K in Switzerland versus $29K in the US. That is not the complaint. Accept that as a cost of buying an overseas product. The price of the car is listed as $61K USD. So it costs you 57400 CHF to buy the 61000 USD needed to purchase the car. Remember that the price of the car is actually given in USD, not CHF. Now the dollar begins a freefall against the franc. Suddenly you can get $61K USD for the bargain rate of only 55000 CHF. So you take your 55K CHF to the car dealer and ask to buy a car. But the dealer says, "I'm sorry. The price is 57400 CHF, which is now equivalent to $64K USD. He just raised the price by $3000 USD, even though the listed price is $61000. His cost has not changed, and he is now importing the cars for less CHF, but he is not passing that exchange rate savings on to the buyer, despite the price of the car being listed in USD.

It is not about the JJ being more expensive than other rebreathers, or being more expensive in the USA. It is about the price being listed in Euro yet being held constant in USD, essentially raising the price to the buyer and harming sales and the reputation of the manufacturer. Curt has now explained that his deal with JJ was in USD, not in Euro. And he has now dropped the price from $10,250 to $9,000. That is still a higher premium in terms of Euro than it was before the exchange rate dropped, but certainly not as much as before JonT started this thread. It is NOT about a JJ costing more than 6778 Euro in the US. Curt spent the time and effort to become the exclusive distributor for JJ in the US. It is about the premium over that price increasing as the exchange rate falls because a supposedly Euro-priced item is being treated as a dollar-priced item.

Jon has enough rebreathers to last several lifetimes. Whether or not he wants to add a JJ to his arsenal, he has every right to question the pricing policy. Think of how much he has already saved people here by getting the price dropped from $10,250 to $9,000. Of course that won't make Curt happy.

I don't wonder sometimes if american's have actually been outside of US ...

There are different time zones outside of east and west coast, different currencies (ie everything is not priced in US$) and different things cost different prices. Its a world that most of the world acknowledges and accepts. Now here we have a European product sold in US and you guys get all out of shape over the difference in price.

 

[JONT]

I don't wonder sometimes if american's have actually been outside of US ...

There are different time zones outside of east and west coast, different currencies (ie everything is not priced in US$) and different things cost different prices. Its a world that most of the world acknowledges and accepts. Now here we have a European product sold in US and you guys get all out of shape over the difference in price.

REALLY??? Now you're turning this into some political argument or you feel the need to criticize America??? LOL

Clown...you have missed the point entirely.

 

[JONT]

Hi Jont,

The US is actually one of the cheapest developed countries to live in when it comes to consumer goods (and most other things as well). Much lower sales tax as well.
So if you want to complain - perhaps you want to compare prices of a number of other consumer goods in the US vs prices in EU or Switzerland where everything is even more expensive.

As an example, a Jeep Grand Cherokee in US starts starts at 29K USD, in Switzerland starts at 57400 CHF = 61K USD. Fair? Try some other ones and let me know in whose favour the prices compare (petrol, electronics, clothing, etc etc). Usually nothing to do even with where they are manufactured or assembled (most often even China). An iPhone cost much more in China than in the US, even though they are assembled there. Fair? Let me write a few letters to Chrysler and Apple and see what comes back .

I guess in US the CCRs are offered at market price compared to supply and demand versus other products and prices thus vary all across the world - they are not just using an exchange rate.

BTW you will find though that the JJ is an amazing unit - and plus or minus 20% it is worth in my view EVERY PENNY.


Take care and enjoy a JJ!

If what you're saying is true the JJ would be cheaper here..........I'm not asking for cheaper, I'm asking to pay FULL retail price in the currency the product is denominated in as published by the MFG.

I know the JJ is a great unit so there's no reason to cheerlead....

This has nothing to do with what taxes any government charges, unfortunately there's little we as individuals can do about that so to say one price structure is fair vs another when factoring in taxes and import/export fee's is totally irrelevant.

 

[cardysnr]

Don't buy it in the US ....fly to Europe & buy one then .....sounds like you believe it would be cheaper, live with it.....we have to (ISC & Meg)

Mountain out of a mole hill .......lol

 

[JONT]

Don't buy it in the US ....fly to Europe & buy one then .....sounds like you believe it would be cheaper, live with it.....we have to (ISC & Meg)

Mountain out of a mole hill .......lol

Thats certainly an option but the point is that it doesn't need to be, there's a better and easier way to solve the problem .....its REAL SIMPLE, sell a EURO denominated asset in Euro!!!!!

Its so easy....and it offers Curt complete protection!!!!!!!!

 

[KenGordon]

Thats incorrect, EU products bought for EXPORT are NOT subjected to tax in the sense you are referring to, and TAX has nothing to do with the MSRP set by the manufacturer.

TAX by definition is something forced on society by a government to pay for the expenses of that government and has nothing to do with any individual manufacturer.

You are practically wrong about this. If I (UK VAT registered) sell goods within any EU country I must charge VAT. If I directly export to a non EU country I do not charge VAT. So to not pay the VAT you need to get the export done by JJ or some JJ dealer. I expect that there are contracts is place to prevent that. So if you go the personal import route you now have to claim back the VAT as you leave. A bit of a harder issue is scheduling your holiday. JJs are quite popular and there is a waiting list. If you have a friend you can accept it for you AND a dealer willing to sell it to you AND still be sure about the VAT remain AND your time is not very valuable etc etc go for it.

Has anyone done this since the JJ became officially available in the US?

 

[JONT]

You are practically wrong about this. If I (UK VAT registered) sell goods within any EU country I must charge VAT. If I directly export to a non EU country I do not charge VAT. So to not pay the VAT you need to get the export done by JJ or some JJ dealer. I expect that there are contracts is place to prevent that. So if you go the personal import route you now have to claim back the VAT as you leave.

Units for export outside of the EU are NOT subjected to VAT

That is exactly what I said at least thats what I meant, again we are talking about MSRP the dealer mark up is included in that number......