GUE CCR, It's OFFICIAL

[Mr fish]

Here's an article with 2 of 10 being a group of GUE divers conducting research.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/top-ten-underwater-discoveries-2014-002516

#9 was at a depth approaching 420' (130m) with BG in twin D7/LP50's (probably bumped up to 150cf of gas). 190' bottle, 70' & o2. I believe there were 12 divers who dove in a couple of staged teams to make the listed artifact recovery.

I don't have many details of #1. I know it was two GUE instructors with JJ units in MX. I believe the depth was 180'-200' (55-60m) in a cave environment. More than likely a staged o2 and 70' bottle.

Having three deco bottles is not very task loading at the T/2 level. It's part of the reason I personally believe it should be a requirement to have T/2 before one gets in over their head with a RB capable of doing some serious dives.

As for long hose donation, which seems to get a lot of attention for no reason really, the RB diver has to have 2 catastrophic failures. One failure of the RB requiring coming off the loop, and the other being a total loss of BG. Deploying the long hose really shouldn't happen, but if it did, it doesn't take any more time than on OC, especially because you should have seen it coming long before.

I'm not sure I understand your last question, would you mind rephrasing it a bit

Dan

Having three deco bottles is not very task loading at the T/2 level yes im with you on that i was of much the same mind when i was a bsac spot diver using 3 deco cylinders ( even better if i had 3k worth of DPV to drag my fat arse and cylinder around with )

the ,9

you posted .9 as a number to have be4 you start your dive , when i ask whets up with 1 , im asking why not 100% . be4 you jump in the water ,
dont tell it so you dont spike the unit on the way down you guys dont dive tyer gas do you ,

long hose , im not asking about time , i just wanted to know if your still comming of a working loop to hand off the long hose , seems you are thank you for the answer, on that one . so same as others. you hand off a unknow reg . but you unlike other gue come off a working loop to do so .

ps
Deploying the long hose really shouldn't happen

if thats true then why have the long hose where it make the diver come of the loop to hand off , seems point less to me ,

maybe its a good thing , gue sticking to what they know , rather than teaching what they dont ,

can i also ask what the plan if you lose you ccr o2 gas , bail out to the big cylinders or some other plan ,
as i always have off board o2 as back up , as id not want to get pushed of the loop off silly small problems ,

 

[scubainchicago]

Having three deco bottles is not very task loading at the T/2 level yes im with you on that i was of much the same mind when i was a bsac spot diver using 3 deco cylinders

the ,9

you posted .9 as a number to have be4 you start your dive , when i ask whets up with 1 , im asking why not 100% . be4 you jump in the water ,
dont tell it so you dont spike the unit on the way down you guys dont dive tyer gas do you ,

long hose , im not asking about time , i just wanted to know if your still comming of a working loop to hand off the long hose , seems you are thank you for the answer, on that one . so same as others. you hand off a unknow reg . but you unlike other come off a working loop to do so .

.7 is the low set point till a manual switch at depth. The .9 is by manual addition and helps check the function of electronics before entry without wasting o2 trying to maintain 100% o2 in the loop.

All regs are checked for function at the surface during a predive GUE EDGE check. As far as a gas donation, I would hope the team knows what standard gas is about to be donated, no different than a OC donation. Coming off the loop for a donation is a last resort, there are other options like unthreading the long hose if someone was that incompetent to flip a lever on a BOV/DSV before preparing to put the long hose on top of the loop. If I were diving in a mixed team, or with someone in a non-GUE type rig, I would start the dive with the long hose on top of the loop to start with.

 

[Mr fish]

.7 is the low set point till a manual switch at depth. The .9 is by manual addition and helps check the function of electronics before entry without wasting o2 trying to maintain 100% o2 in the loop.

All regs are checked for function at the surface during a predive GUE EDGE check. As far as a gas donation, I would hope the team knows what standard gas is about to be donated, no different than a OC donation. Coming off the loop for a donation is a last resort, there are other options like unthreading the long hose if someone was that incompetent to flip a lever on a BOV/DSV before preparing to put the long hose on top of the loop. If I were diving in a mixed team, or with someone in a non-GUE type rig, I would start the dive with the long hose on top of the loop to start with.

I do dive a repreather so i know the odd thing about set point s and manual add , the long hose stuff is of more intrest to me , i find it v hard to wast o2 on my breather even pissing some a way doing loop flushing on deco im only able to use up 50 to 70 bar out of a 3l on a 3hr dive, and it cost feek all

i understand the loop/ long hose somewhat better now thank s

 

[scubainchicago]

I do dive a repreather so i know the odd thing about set point s and manual add , the long hose stuff is of more intrest to me , i find it v hard to wast o2 on my breather even pissing some a way doing loop flushing on deco im only able to use up 50 to 70 bar out of a 3l on a 3hr dive, and it cost feek all

o2 is pricey

 

[Mr fish]

o2 is pricey

lol 9400L used to cost me $7,5 , back in the day ,1993 a 3hr dive on my ccr to day cost me $4.3.
its the balloon gas thats pricey over this side of the pond ,

thanks fot your post sir ,

 

[PeterN]

The numbers work quite well with BO gases to the next OC switch. The configuration has and continues to be used on 300' + dives. Just this past year, 3 very high profile projects with great historical significance have been featured in various mainstream publications. While I'm not privy to releasing any formulas or materials, the thought process and implementation has been very in depth.

I don't care about your numbers. Nor about donating your neck bungeeed second stage. I am however interested in BO stratagies.

Are you diving hypoxic gases in those big, manifolded 50's? If so are you continuing to have a second stage from it to the neck as a BO reg? If so, what do you do for BO in the shallows and at the surface?

Thanks for taking the time.

Peter

 

[scubainchicago]

Nor about donating your neck bungeeed second stage. I am however interested in BO stratagies.

The neck bungie would't be donated, it would be the long hose.

Are you diving hypoxic gases in those big, manifolded 50's? If so are you continuing to have a second stage from it to the neck as a BO reg? If so, what do you do for BO in the shallows and at the surface?

Thanks for taking the time.

Peter

The dil is BG (back gas or BO) and comes off the right post of the manifold to the adv. The BOV or bungied backup comes from the left post. These are all verified as working regulators during a standard equipment check. For doing a dive with something hypoxic like 10/70, one could just adjust the last deco stop to 25' while on the loop in case of the need to bail out to back gas. If doing a dive with something leaner, one could also deploy the o2 reg and loop behind the head in case the need arose. I hope I read your question correctly and answered it for you

Dan

 

[Mr fish]

The neck bungie would't be donated, it would be the long hose.



The dil is BG (back gas or BO) and comes off the right post of the manifold to the adv. The BOV or bungied backup comes from the left post. These are all verified as working regulators during a standard equipment check. For doing a dive with something hypoxic like 10/70, one could just adjust the last deco stop to 25' while on the loop in case of the need to bail out to back gas. If doing a dive with something leaner, one could also deploy the o2 reg and loop behind the head in case the need arose. I hope I read your question correctly and answered it for you

Dan

can you run me a table up for a 90m dive , and this 10/70 oc /bail out deco as my noddy planner wont even entertain it, im happy to say ,

10/70 back to 9m then o2 deco , run time is over 400mins and 8000l of 10/70 and 2500l of o2,

 

[scubainchicago]

can you run me a table up for a 90m dive , and this 10/70 oc /bail out deco as my noddy planner wont even entertain it, im happy to say ,

10/70 back to 9m then o2 deco , run time is over 400mins and 8000l of 10/70 and 2500l of o2,

I couldn't think of a reason not to stop at all the deco stops on the way up to 9m if the gas is available. At least I would't plan for it.

Just using Deco Planner with 20 min bottom time I'm getting 110-120 min total run time with BG, 190', 70' & 20' (add about 20 min of deco for additional 5 of BT). All deco bottles could be AL40, but would probably opt for an AL80 for the 190 bottle.

 

[rjack]

The neck bungie would't be donated, it would be the long hose.

The dil is BG (back gas or BO) and comes off the right post of the manifold to the adv. The BOV or bungied backup comes from the left post. These are all verified as working regulators during a standard equipment check. For doing a dive with something hypoxic like 10/70, one could just adjust the last deco stop to 25' while on the loop in case of the need to bail out to back gas. If doing a dive with something leaner, one could also deploy the o2 reg and loop behind the head in case the need arose. I hope I read your question correctly and answered it for you

Dan

What Peter is curious about and I am as well is. Instead of a BOV you are going to your necklace. Instead of a stuffed hose you are handing off a long hose to a buddy. Put 10/70 (or even leaner on O2) in those backmounted 50s and you can't go to your necklace on the surface. The chances of you needing to donate a long hose on the surface are probably less than needing to use you own bailout, but still a concern. Especially if you have OC divers around (buddies, safety divers etc)

Looping a deco bailout reg over the loop hoses for the first 20-30ft of the dive seems like a kludge. But a lot of problems happen on the surface or very near the surface. WKPP nearly lost an RB80 diver who passed out since he couldn't descend as fast as he needed to (somewhere in FL) due to hypoxia. This was perhaps 4 years ago now. Having an elegant way of dealing with hypoxic bailout shallow is something we are all challenged to figure out.

 

[Bobjr]

What Peter is curious about and I am as well is. Instead of a BOV you are going to your necklace. Instead of a stuffed hose you are handing off a long hose to a buddy. Put 10/70 (or even leaner on O2) in those backmounted 50s and you can't go to your necklace on the surface. The chances of you needing to donate a long hose on the surface are probably less than needing to use you own bailout, but still a concern. Especially if you have OC divers around (buddies, safety divers etc)

Looping a deco bailout reg over the loop hoses for the first 20-30ft of the dive seems like a kludge. But a lot of problems happen on the surface or very near the surface. WKPP nearly lost an RB80 diver who passed out since he couldn't descend as fast as he needed to (somewhere in FL) due to hypoxia. This was perhaps 4 years ago now. Having an elegant way of dealing with hypoxic bailout shallow is something we are all challenged to figure out.

The WKPP incident was a few more years ago than 4 IIRC and was caused by the FO2 drop and a delay (because of excessive aquatic vegetation) as well as hypoxic drive gas (I can't remember if the diver was on 190 or 300ft bottle - both becoming hypoxic very quickly on PSCR either way)

It doesn't matter if you are on CCR or OC with hypoxic back gas you always have a zone in the shallows where you can't go to back gas. Awareness, having a travel gas out and support divers can all help.

 

[Mr fish]

The WKPP incident was a few more years ago than 4 IIRC and was caused by the FO2 drop and a delay (because of excessive aquatic vegetation) as well as hypoxic drive gas (I can't remember if the diver was on 190 or 300ft bottle - both becoming hypoxic very quickly on PSCR either way)

It doesn't matter if you are on CCR or OC with hypoxic back gas you always have a zone in the shallows where you can't go to back gas. Awareness, having a travel gas out and support divers can all help.

ccr dives allways have a good gas from 6m or less , ps you run your breather on it ,

 

[Mr fish]

I couldn't think of a reason not to stop at all the deco stops on the way up to 9m if the gas is available. At least I would't plan for it.

Just using Deco Planner with 20 min bottom time I'm getting 110-120 min total run time with BG, 190', 70' & 20' (add about 20 min of deco for additional 5 of BT). All deco bottles could be AL40, but would probably opt for an AL80 for the 190 bottle.

if you have a 190 foot cylinders why the large back gas as its not much use to you , deco wize ,

 

[Bobjr]

if you have a 190 foot cylinders why the large back gas as its not much use to you ,

also your numbers only work if all your oc deco cylinders also work , your talking team dive,s only , yes we know you guys never end up solo ,

300'/100m dive and I don't wanna end up ascending all the way to 70'/21m to do a switch I also need enough gas to get from 300'/100m to 190'/57m

 

[rjack]

The WKPP incident was a few more years ago than 4 IIRC and was caused by the FO2 drop and a delay (because of excessive aquatic vegetation) as well as hypoxic drive gas (I can't remember if the diver was on 190 or 300ft bottle - both becoming hypoxic very quickly on PSCR either way)

It doesn't matter if you are on CCR or OC with hypoxic back gas you always have a zone in the shallows where you can't go to back gas. Awareness, having a travel gas out and support divers can all help.

You're right it was 2007. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/showthread.php?t=11311

As far as I can tell there's no travel bailout on the GUE-JJ configuration. There aren't very many OC dives being done on 10/70 anymore and breathing a stage of deeper deco gas is not a big deal on the start of an OC dive. Because the GUE-JJ is using the "next deeper" standard gas as a combination dil/bailout, then presumably there will be a lot more divers using 12/65 or 10/70 as dil/BO. Having a stage reg of deco gas as BO handy is certainly plausible, but Peter and I would like to know how Dan (and anyone else taking GUE's CCR course) were trained to address having very hypoxic bailout feeding the necklace and the long hose.

"Awareness" only gets you so far when the unit is flooding on the surface (or a CO2 hit shallow) and you need something to breath. Perhaps whipping out any deco gas reg is the solution, but if you have additional hypoxic gas on you doing a gas switch like that (rushed) is never ideal.

 

[Mr fish]

300'/100m dive and I don't wanna end up ascending all the way to 70'/21m to do a switch I also need enough gas to get from 300'/100m to 190'/57m

yes with you on that, so why the big back gas cylinders , how much do you need to get to the 57m cylinder , what do you do if you cant make the 57m switch , back gas to the next say 21m your digging a hole deco wize , shit load of gas on your back and usless for deco / getting you out , and ever Increasing deco stop on a crap gas your running out of,

 

[Bobjr]

yes with you on that, so why the big back gas cylinders , how much do you need to get to the 57m cylinder , what do you do if you cant make the 57m switch , back gas to the next say 21m your digging a hole deco wize , shit load of gas on your back and usless for deco / getting you out , and ever Increasing deco stop on a crap gas your running out of,

What do you propose?

Personally I always feel more comfortable with loads of back gas, shortening the stops to allow me to get up to the next gas could be a solution ... but now we are in the bailed out and lost deco gas scenerio ... very hard to solve wiht in water resources and I'd be looking for some help coming from above

 

[Bobjr]

You're right it was 2007. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/showthread.php?t=11311

As far as I can tell there's no travel bailout on the GUE-JJ configuration. There aren't very many OC dives being done on 10/70 anymore and breathing a stage of deeper deco gas is not a big deal on the start of an OC dive. Because the GUE-JJ is using the "next deeper" standard gas as a combination dil/bailout, then presumably there will be a lot more divers using 12/65 or 10/70 as dil/BO. Having a stage reg of deco gas as BO handy is certainly plausible, but Peter and I would like to know how Dan (and anyone else taking GUE's CCR course) were trained to address having very hypoxic bailout feeding the necklace and the long hose.

"Awareness" only gets you so far when the unit is flooding on the surface (or a CO2 hit shallow) and you need something to breath. Perhaps whipping out any deco gas reg is the solution, but if you have additional hypoxic gas on you doing a gas switch like that (rushed) is never ideal.

I did the first beta class (18mo ago) and watched a later class early last year and in both there was discussion and suggestions. Shallows is alway a dangerous area with hypoxic mixes so awareness is paramount and having access to a breathable gas (at start of gas that for me is usually 50% or 21/35) and O2 at end of dive. In some senses CCR makes it easier and the unit gives you a breathable mix. I don't treat it any different to diving OC with hypoxic gases and follow same protocols.

 

[Mr fish]

What do you propose?

Personally I always feel more comfortable with loads of back gas, shortening the stops to allow me to get up to the next gas could be a solution ... but now we are in the bailed out and lost deco gas scenerio ... very hard to solve wiht in water resources and I'd be looking for some help coming from above

yes lots of problems , and just sticking a large back gas/dill on a unit wont all ways help , no answers from me sorry , if i did ,it would,nt fit in with what gue is doing
with this set up / twinset long hose and a breather in the middle ,

happy diving sir

 

[rjack]

I did the first beta class (18mo ago) and watched a later class early last year and in both there was discussion and suggestions. Shallows is alway a dangerous area with hypoxic mixes so awareness is paramount and having access to a breathable gas (at start of gas that for me is usually 50% or 21/35) and O2 at end of dive. In some senses CCR makes it easier and the unit gives you a breathable mix. I don't treat it any different to diving OC with hypoxic gases and follow same protocols.

That certainly makes sense. I guess I'm just a little surprised that there is no standardized strategy for bailing out shallow. How to have 21/35 or 50% OC accessible, not deployed in a rush etc. And how to "avoid" going to the necklace in these situations. Especially at the start of a dive where there's typically a lot going on. Leaving it up to diver choice (what to have ready and how to have it available) seems very un-GUE-like to me.