CCR Cave instructor requirements

kwinter said:
How does the instructor for an Advanced Nitrox class know that the student is well versed in the principles of nitrox?
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Because the instructor is also a Nitrox instructor (and diver).

kwinter said:
How does an OC Cave instructor know that the student is comfortable with buoyancy control and all of his gear?
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Because the cave instructor is also an OW instructor, and presumably an instructor for many more advanced level courses that teach these skills.

kwinter said:
Do you think you would be unable to tell if a rEvo diver has a basic mastery of his CCR if you started him in a class?
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Me personally? Probably not, as I have only ever dived a rEvo in the pool. Could I tell if a cave student absolutely didn't have enough mastery to be in a cave? Yes. But I don't know all the little tips and tricks yet, as I have not learned them from someone who regularly dives, and teaches on the rEvo. So I feel as though that student would not be getting a fairly significant benefit from the CCR cave course - how to MOST EFFECTIVELY dive his/her CCR in the cave, which can vary greatly from unit to unit. The CCR Cave course isn't just about staying alive, it is also about having fun and using the CCR to our advantage.

kwinter said:
Maybe I just have greater confidence in you than you have in yourself.
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You are making me blush now :)
 
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CCR Josh said:
So I feel as though that student would not be getting a fairly significant benefit from the CCR cave course - how to MOST EFFECTIVELY dive his/her CCR in the cave, which can vary greatly from unit to unit. The CCR Cave course isn't just about staying alive, it is also about having fun and using the CCR to our advantage.
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I think that statement puts a lot of pressure on the instructor, maybe too much pressure? What if a CCR dive with a couple of thousand hours in OW come and want to do a cave course. Should an instructor, that has just made a cross over and an introduction to the unit tell the student how to dive it most efficiently? It really doesnt matter if it is in a cave, does it? The student could have been wreck diving with deep penetration for years.

Nope, I don't buy into that argument :) (Yes I know I am pushing the envelope here)

I see it as the instructor has one goal, and that is to teach the student about cave diving. And I repeat myself again. The course standards must be set at a level that is high enough to stop divers that are not suitable for cave diving. We discussed previously that there must be standards and rules so that there will not be people who slips through courses based on financial grounds. But really, just because you set standards of what breather to use and that the instructor must be trained on it will not help. Even if those standards are met, instructors that does teach fro a financial standpoint will do so regardless, even if the student has the correct unit, there might be other pre requisitions that are not met, but course is held any way...
 
Jeppe said:
I think that statement puts a lot of pressure on the instructor, maybe too much pressure? What if a CCR dive with a couple of thousand hours in OW come and want to do a cave course. Should an instructor, that has just made a cross over and an introduction to the unit tell the student how to dive it most efficiently? It really doesnt matter if it is in a cave, does it? The student could have been wreck diving with deep penetration for years.
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I have had a few CCR cave students who have probably been wreck diving longer than I have been alive. I have even had students who had experience with rebreathers when I was only Jr. Open Water certified. At least one of these students had also been diving the particular unit, just as long (year-wise at least) if not longer than me. I can also tell you, that because of my intimate knowledge of the particular CCR unit, they learned things that were particular to their unit, and they may or may it choose to take with them from the cave world to the wreck world.

Jeppe said:
Should an instructor, that has just made a cross over and an introduction to the unit tell the student how to dive it most efficiently?<strong> It really doesnt matter if it is in a cave, does it? </strong>
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Have you completed a CCR cave course? From this statement I would guess one of two things:

1- you have not completed a CCR cave course
2- if you have, you did not get what you should have out of it. That could be due to several different issues which could be a whole new discussion.

I don't kow you personally. I don't know what your diving experience is, and I mean no offense. I have had very similar discussions with potential CCR cave students before their course. In the end, whether it is said publicly or in private, the result is the same. The student comes out with a new knowledge of cave diving and what their CCR is capable of in a cave environment and they are grateful that they completed the course.

It is interesting that some instructors are arguing for what seems to limit our potential students, while some potential students are arguing for the other way around. Is this because you would rather take a course from the CCR cave instructor of your choosing, even if they don't have an in depth knowledge of you unit? I guess I am just trying to understand why students would have a string opinion one way or the other.





Sent from my rebreather using Tapatalk...
 
kwinter said:
Well versed in the caves? Absolutely. Showing the student all the "need-to-know and nice-to-knows about their rig?" Unnecessary (or at least that's what we're discussing). Please tell us some of those features of their rebreather that are specific to cave diving that they shouldn't already know about and be well-versed in before getting to that point. And as for "pushing cave diving to another level using rebreather technology," that is not the purpose of CCR Cave training. It isn't about expedition diving or big pushes. Most people who take a CCR Cave class are not OC cave trained, so they aren't pushing their cave diving to any different level.
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Ken the standards do not require any level 2 0r 3 certs so decompression techniques and alot of skill outside mod 1 class would need to be shown for example:

Stage and decompression bottle use / switching
Semi closed rebreather mode
Flood Recovery of the CCR
Manual Flight control exit
No O2 liner swims
When to use off-board pluggable gas
BOOM drills! Fixable and None fixable failures
And my list goes on...

If the instructor doesn't dive the rigg then how would he know the details for each soil for how to do the above?

its not an agency standard but I do not train cave divers on CCR from the off, I first require them to find their limits and gain Cave experience on OC and use the CCR as a tool to extend their range and my class is way more technical than a basic 5 day cave class. I believe rebreather is not always the best way to dive cave in many locations. So I suppose Im not interested in running your average basic cave CCR class.
 
CCR Josh said:
Have you completed a CCR cave course? From this statement I would guess one of two things:

1- you have not completed a CCR cave course
2- if you have, you did not get what you should have out of it. That could be due to several different issues which could be a whole new discussion.

I don't know you personally. I don't know what your diving experience is, and I mean no offense. I have had very similar discussions with potential CCR cave students before their course. In the end, whether it is said publicly or in private, the result is the same. The student comes out with a new knowledge of cave diving and what their CCR is capable of in a cave environment and they are grateful that they completed the course.

It is interesting that some instructors are arguing for what seems to limit our potential students, while some potential students are arguing for the other way around. Is this because you would rather take a course from the CCR cave instructor of your choosing, even if they don't have an in depth knowledge of you unit? I guess I am just trying to understand why students would have a string opinion one way or the other.
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I am definitely a Nr:1

I am just discussing, no offence taken at all. I am just looking around for a potential cave training and where to go. I have no preference in either agancy or instructor. It will be with the one who can train me. As I said previously, I have too little knowledge of this area, hence the discussion. So if you do learn something new about the breather in a cave environment then I can understand the need for basic knowledge of the unit in question. Maybe a basic cross over is sufficient, I don't know. But i still think it should be a discussion between the instructor and the student. The instructor could present various error scenarios and then the student would need to answer how to solve them on his unit. But I understand that it is easier, to just put is as an requirement.

As regards to my Unit, it is a upgraded Poseidon 7, which means it is an eCCR with MAV's, ADV shut-off and secondary onboard computer. Worst case scenario, would turn it into a mCCR but without any orifice or needle valve (gas added through MAV with offboard gas)
 
Mattp said:
Ken the standards do not require any level 2 0r 3 certs so decompression techniques and alot of skill outside mod 1 class would need to be shown for example:

Stage and decompression bottle use / switching
Semi closed rebreather mode
Flood Recovery of the CCR
Manual Flight control exit
No O2 liner swims
When to use off-board pluggable gas
BOOM drills! Fixable and None fixable failures
And my list goes on...

If the instructor doesn't dive the rigg then how would he know the details for each soil for how to do the above?

its not an agency standard but I do not train cave divers on CCR from the off, I first require them to find their limits and gain Cave experience on OC and use the CCR as a tool to extend their range and my class is way more technical than a basic 5 day cave class. I believe rebreather is not always the best way to dive cave in many locations. So I suppose Im not interested in running your average basic cave CCR class.
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SCR, flood recovery, manual control, and BOOM drills were all part of my basic CCR training, as was basic decompression (up to 15 minutes) including bailouts. You are correct that bottle swapping was not a skill taught in Mod 1, but I'm not sure if I covered that in CCR Cave either. It was definitely in CCR Trimix.

No O2 liner swims? I'm not sure what you mean by this, so I can't refute that. And as for when to use off-board pluggable gasses, I have no idea what this has to do with cave training at all. Many people do not have the ability to plug offboard gasses in. Those that do would use it primarily for mixed gas diving, which is independent of cave diving.

You haven't convinced me.
 
kwinter said:
SCR, flood recovery, manual control, and BOOM drills were all part of my basic CCR training, as was basic decompression (up to 15 minutes) including bailouts. You are correct that bottle swapping was not a skill taught in Mod 1, but I'm not sure if I covered that in CCR Cave either. It was definitely in CCR Trimix.

No O2 liner swims? I'm not sure what you mean by this, so I can't refute that. And as for when to use off-board pluggable gasses, I have no idea what this has to do with cave training at all. Many people do not have the ability to plug offboard gasses in. Those that do would use it primarily for mixed gas diving, which is independent of cave diving.

You haven't convinced me.
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Well sounds like you had a good mod 1 Ken, Im not trying to convince anyone! I teach a lot of classes and get to see a lot of variety in students skill sets to see the pitfalls at this level.
 
There is one thing that I have not seen here is that a CCR cave student is suppose to be trained to the same level as the cave level that they are taking. All of the skills that were taught during is Mod 3 CCr (Level 4-5 with ANDI) the student should have already mastered. During the cave course the student is taught cave diving skills and then making sure his CCR skills are up to par and extended in the cave. Some one with a entry level ccr course (even if they are oc trimix qualified) are only qualified to do the cavern course with the CCR. Once the student has completed his CCR deco they can do the Intro to cave, Extended range CCR course they can do the Full cave course.
 
ASIAN CCR said:
There is one thing that I have not seen here is that a CCR cave student is suppose to be trained to the same level as the cave level that they are taking. All of the skills that were taught during is Mod 3 CCr (Level 4-5 with ANDI) the student should have already mastered. During the cave course the student is taught cave diving skills and then making sure his CCR skills are up to par and extended in the cave. Some one with a entry level ccr course (even if they are oc trimix qualified) are only qualified to do the cavern course with the CCR. Once the student has completed his CCR deco they can do the Intro to cave, Extended range CCR course they can do the Full cave course.
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Those may be the standards for ANDI, but most other agencies are not structured this way.
 
ASIAN CCR said:
There is one thing that I have not seen here is that a CCR cave student is suppose to be trained to the same level as the cave level that they are taking. All of the skills that were taught during is Mod 3 CCr (Level 4-5 with ANDI) the student should have already mastered. During the cave course the student is taught cave diving skills and then making sure his CCR skills are up to par and extended in the cave. Some one with a entry level ccr course (even if they are oc trimix qualified) are only qualified to do the cavern course with the CCR. Once the student has completed his CCR deco they can do the Intro to cave, Extended range CCR course they can do the Full cave course.
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I noticed your OMS avatar and wondered if you still dive with OMS gear?


Garth
 
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