CCR Cave instructor requirements

[kwinter]

Following up from some other threads. I have learned that different training agencies handle instructor requirements differently with respect to the type of CCR the student is using for CCR Cave training. For those agencies that offer a specific certification in CCR Cave, the instructor requirements can be categorized in the following 3 ways:

1. The CCR Cave instructor must be a certified instructor for the specific CCR the student will be using.
2. The CCR Cave instructor must be certified to dive the same unit the student will be using, but does not have to be an instructor for that particular CCR.
3. The CCR Cave instructor needs to be familiar with the CCR that the student will use, but does not need to be certified on that unit as either a diver or an instructor.

Which specific training agencies fall into which categories? And are there other categories that should be listed?

I have been told that IANTD falls into category 2 while TDI is in category 1 and NSSCDS falls into category 3. What about others? It certainly makes a difference if students using different CCRs want to take a course together.

Nothing earth shattering here. Just curious.

 

[Randy Thornton]

Ken, as you can imagine, there some in the CCR Cave Instructor community that consider option #3 to be somewhat scary, myself included.

 

[kwinter]

Fred (SlowDiver) pointed out in another thread that he thinks it may be an advantage to have different units present during training because it is more like what happens in real life. But it is a bit scary to be responsible for someone unless you are intimately familiar with their unit. And there doesn't seem to be the requirement for the CCR to be in factory stock condition like there is for initial Mod 1 training. So even a Meg isn't necessarily a Meg.

It does raise some interesting possibilities. So when instructors like you post about an upcoming CCR Cave class, maybe it needs to be specified which CCRs will be allowed. And I guess the same goes for CCR Trimix, etc. This is all stuff I never really thought much about.

 

[Randy Thornton]

Ken, IMHO, language open to individual interpretation such as "The CCR Cave instructor needs to be familiar with the CCR that the student will use" could easily lead to individual abuse. It's kind of like posting speed limit signs on highways that say "drive responsibly!" I have no issue with individual divers choosing to dive what, how or where they may. When it comes to instruction however, the instructors and agencies have a duty of care that should/must be reasonably defined.

 

[Jeppe]

Ken, as you can imagine, there some in the CCR Cave Instructor community that consider option #3 to be somewhat scary, myself included.

Why?

I am going to stick my chin out here (since that is what I normally do)...

Cave diving is considered to be one of the most extreme way of scuba diving. Not many % of the numbers of divers does it. I think it is only those who are truly dedicated to diving that undertake such a challenge. An instructor is there to learn the student a specific thing. In this case, how to dive in a cave in a safe way. He is not there to teach how to dive a specific breather in a cave. The prerequisition must be set at a level that the student is comfortable with the unit, so that any issues that might arise will be handled like it is second nature for the diver. Obviously the instructor needs to know about the breather in question, but I think it puts an unreasonable limit for the diver that really want to learn cave diving on his unit. It also means that an instructor must undertake a lot of cross-overs and keep track of all the different variables on each unit, so there is always a potential risk that it gets mixed up.

Personally I just want some light cave diving, no restrictions, not a lot of jumps and navigation. But the rules tends to limit my number of choices due to the unit I dive, even though it has the same functionality as most other units.

 

[SlowDiver]

Remember back in the days when a student would ask about getting trained with a certain training agency and the forum readers would jump in and say don't pick the agency but pick a GOOD instructor. Well I guess those days are gone. Now the student is VERY limited as to who they can take training from. I know the manufactures would love to have only there rebreathers being used. By putting these restrictions on the instructor I think is not going to be good for the rebreather diving as a whole.
Mod 1, yes I agree, the student and instructor needs to be in like gear. But passed that the student had better know his rig or stay at Mod 1. Now living in Cave country and diving just about every week I have yet to have a buddy diving a HH. So why not have students of different type rebreathers in the class. That is what they will be encountering in the real world.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Randy Thornton]

Why?

I am going to stick my chin out here (since that is what I normally do)...

Cave diving is considered to be one of the most extreme way of scuba diving. Not many % of the numbers of divers does it. I think it is only those who are truly dedicated to diving that undertake such a challenge. An instructor is there to learn the student a specific thing. In this case, how to dive in a cave in a safe way. He is not there to teach how to dive a specific breather in a cave. The prerequisition must be set at a level that the student is comfortable with the unit, so that any issues that might arise will be handled like it is second nature for the diver. Obviously the instructor needs to know about the breather in question, but I think it puts an unreasonable limit for the diver that really want to learn cave diving on his unit. It also means that an instructor must undertake a lot of cross-overs and keep track of all the different variables on each unit, so there is always a potential risk that it gets mixed up.

I totally understand where you are coming from and don't disagree with much of what you are saying. My only concern is that with "Option #3" there is little definition as to "familiarity". I have seen CCR Cave Instructors teaching courses to students diving CCRs of which the instructor has little more knowledge about other than having seen one in person at a trade show or on the internet. IMHO, this is not taking the "duty of care" responsibility seriously.

 

[moose_grunt]

I totally understand where you are coming from and don't disagree with much of what you are saying. My only concern is that with "Option #3" there is little definition as to "familiarity". I have seen CCR Cave Instructors teaching courses to students diving CCRs of which the instructor has little more knowledge about other than having seen one in person at a trade show or on the internet. IMHO, this is not taking the "duty of care" responsibility seriously.

I think this also brings up interesting questions about doing the training with homebuilt units, both in the possibility that it might be acceptable (after doing enough dives/time explaining the unit to the instructor), and also in the legal issues that would come up if, God forbid, the student were to die during the class. I think that would be a hard argument in court for the instructor.

 

[Randy Thornton]

Remember back in the days when a student would ask about getting trained with a certain training agency and the forum readers would jump in and say don't pick the agency but pick a GOOD instructor. Well I guess those days are gone. Now the student is VERY limited as to who they can take training from. I know the manufactures would love to have only there rebreathers being used. By putting these restrictions on the instructor I think is not going to be good for the rebreather diving as a whole.
Mod 1, yes I agree, the student and instructor needs to be in like gear. But passed that the student had better know his rig or stay at Mod 1. Now living in Cave country and diving just about every week I have yet to have a buddy diving a HH. So why not have students of different type rebreathers in the class. That is what they will be encountering in the real world.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Fred, I'm am not suggesting that a "mixed" class of various brand rebreathers is not a reasonable option. Neither am I implying that one agency or curriculum is necessarily stronger than another. What does concern me however, is that some instructors may be ill prepared to teach students diving units for which the instructor has little or no experience on. Regardless of what inconvenience it causes, a CCR is not just "another" CCR. Each unit has its own peculiarities and unique features and protocols. The big question is "What level of mastery is sufficient for an instructor?" One would like to think that cave students would arrive to the course having completely mastered their CCR and achieved JEDI status on their units before undertaking a cave course. My experience has shown that this is rarely the case. There is a wide variety of individual proficiency levels when these students show up for a course, and if the instructor does not at least have a complete operational mastery of the student's unit, we are creating a dangerous situation in my opinion.

 

[Jeppe]

I totally understand where you are coming from and don't disagree with much of what you are saying. My only concern is that with "Option #3" there is little definition as to "familiarity". I have seen CCR Cave Instructors teaching courses to students diving CCRs of which the instructor has little more knowledge about other than having seen one in person at a trade show or on the internet. IMHO, this is not taking the "duty of care" responsibility seriously.

Agreed, it also puts the instructor in a tight spot, where he needs to get trained on various breathers. I can certainly understand that the instructors need to have proper knowledge of the unit, and there is no common ground to stand on. Instead all the agencies draw a hard line, straight across the common ground so it gets very black and white. I would actually go so far to say that this responsibility should be on the instructor, rather on the training agency. It is kind of a cop out for me, to keep the instructors out of harms way so to speak. But I still each single instructor should make that judgement by them self. It might be that I end up at your doorstep with my Poseidon breather, with MAV's and Redundant secondary pO2 computer, only to hear you say, I am not certified on Poseidon breathers. Even though it operates just like any other eCCR that you are trained on (well, ok... sort of, but you get my point). A course creates after all a binding between the instructor and student, where a lot of things are discussed and both parties learn from each other. So why not implement that kind of thinking when it comes to different units as well. It is always the instructors privilege to say; No, I cant train you on your unit.

 

[Randy Thornton]

Agreed, it also puts the instructor in a tight spot, where he needs to get trained on various breathers. I can certainly understand that the instructors need to have proper knowledge of the unit, and there is no common ground to stand on. Instead all the agencies draw a hard line, straight across the common ground so it gets very black and white. I would actually go so far to say that this responsibility should be on the instructor, rather on the training agency. It is kind of a cop out for me, to keep the instructors out of harms way so to speak. But I still each single instructor should make that judgement by them self. It might be that I end up at your doorstep with my Poseidon breather, with MAV's and Redundant secondary pO2 computer, only to hear you say, I am not certified on Poseidon breathers. Even though it operates just like any other eCCR that you are trained on (well, ok... sort of, but you get my point). A course creates after all a binding between the instructor and student, where a lot of things are discussed and both parties learn from each other. So why not implement that kind of thinking when it comes to different units as well. It is always the instructors privilege to say; No, I cant train you on your unit.

Jeppe, unfortunately, leaving these types of decisions up to individual instructors is not really practical IMHO. If you look at some of the short cuts that are implemented by individual instructors due to financial need or convenience, I shudder to think what would happen in the marketplace if agencies left these types of decisions up to the instructors. Human nature being what it is, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Similar to the same reason that we have laws in the societies in which we live. One could say, I'll leave it up to each person to work out for themselves what is right or wrong, but unfortunately, for many people if something is legal, it must be right! Without some level of rules, regulations, laws, etc. we end up in chaos. Again, the big question is "what level of oversight is necessary and proper?"

 

[CCR Josh]

It does raise some interesting possibilities. So when instructors like you post about an upcoming CCR Cave class, maybe it needs to be specified which CCRs will be allowed. And I guess the same goes for CCR Trimix, etc. This is all stuff I never really thought much about.

We do state which rebreathers are supported in our CCR Cave course here:
http://diveaddicts.com/training/technical-diving/ccr



Sent from my rebreather using Tapatalk...

 

[Garth]

...Now living in Cave country and diving just about every week I have yet to have a buddy diving a HH....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

We need to remedy that.

Of course maybe after April...

My buddies have an evolution and a hammerhead inspiration. I've never taken charge of the vision electronics on the one but will need to do that soon just to ensure I know what buttons do and what all that 'friggin beeping' means!!





Garth

 

[kwinter]

If you look at some of the short cuts that are implemented by individual instructors due to financial need or convenience, I shudder to think what would happen in the marketplace if agencies left these types of decisions up to the instructors.

Amen to that! But maybe the pendulum swinging the other way isn't good either. The students are supposed to have mastery of their CCRs. The skills being taught in CCR Cave class are not really related to the operation of a particular CCR. So intimate knowledge or certification by the instructor might be helpful, but should not be required. Worst thing that happens is the student does not pass because s/he hasn't mastered the RB, and that caused the cave skills to be inadequately demonstrated.

From a duty of care standpoint, the instructor is responsible for the student's safety. But you could make a case that the only thing the instructor (or dive buddy for that matter) needs to know for all practical purposes, is how to bail the other guy out, and what gas is carried and connected. Maybe also how to vent gas in case the student gets stuck to the ceiling. I think taking Fred's point further, an OW instructor who uses a backplate and wing can teach a student with a Zeagle BCD, even if he has never seen one before.

I see both sides. But I also think the skills of CCR Trimix might be a little more unit specific than CCR Cave. Certainly in the case of eCCRs and common knowledge of the computers. A Hammerhead instructor should have no restriction about teaching an Optima student. Unless of course the student swapped for a Shearwater controller.......

Round and round we go.


Please pardon any typos. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SlowDiver]

Ken we can take this train of thought even further. I am a OW instructor and the students I get are taking advance or higher courses, not basic. Now when I get them most already have there own gear, which can vary from conventional weight belts to weight integrated. The OCTO can be by way of a standard second stage or part of the power inflator. And since the introduction of OW side mount the fun is just beginning with non traditional setup. In all my years of teaching I've only had one problem and that was when I was teaching an advance recreational trimix class. Had a new dive master to help with the dives and he was not familiar with the Sherwood first stages one of the students was using. He didn't like the steady steam of little bubbles coming from the reg. and kept wanting to take the student back to surface. Needless to say, since I was the instructor and over ruled him, we completed the dive with no other interruption..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Jeppe]

The students are supposed to have mastery of their CCRs. The skills being taught in CCR Cave class are not really related to the operation of a particular CCR. So intimate knowledge or certification by the instructor might be helpful, but should not be required. Worst thing that happens is the student does not pass because s/he hasn't mastered the RB, and that caused the cave skills to be inadequately demonstrated.

From a duty of care standpoint, the instructor is responsible for the student's safety. But you could make a case that the only thing the instructor (or dive buddy for that matter) needs to know for all practical purposes, is how to bail the other guy out, and what gas is carried and connected. Maybe also how to vent gas in case the student gets stuck to the ceiling.

Yes, exactly!

Of course, I know to little about cave diving and even less about teaching cave diving. But I guess the course is held in such a way, that the risks are kept to a minimum. So as you say, what does the instructor really need to know? I guess there is the same liability waiver on cave courses that is signed off by the student as on every CCR course, from day 1.

I see Randy´s point with instructors that takes short cuts due to financial gain. That is sad, no matter what level or organization we talk about. I still think that it should be a discussion between the student and the instructor, but I might be a bit naive from my standpoint.

 

[Mattp]

For a few years now this topic as kind of been discussed, in my opinion the CCR cave instructor should be well versed in the caves they teach in, I also cannot see how an Instructor can show all the need to know and nice to know's to the student about their rigg if they don't dive it themselves, therefore at least be certified on the unit. I also see from this that compatibility between the student and instructor mind set is very important and a mentor relationship in this arena is important if the intention is to push cave diving to another level using Rebreather technology. Most agency guide minimum standards this doesn't mean we have to teach to it or accept it a students in training. Just my 2 cents.

 

[CCR Josh]

Everyone keeps talking about how the student "should" know their rebreather, and "should" be able to dive the unit correctly. How can a cave instructor know if their student does or does not have mastery of the unit if the instructor does not have at least a minimum level of knowledge of the unit?

And I think we can all agree that at least the user level course is required before this minimum level of knowledge is acquired.


Sent from my rebreather using Tapatalk

 

[CCR Josh]

I also cannot see how an Instructor can show all the need to know and nice to know's to the student about their rigg if they don't dive it themselves, therefore at least be certified on the unit.

+1




Sent from my rebreather using Tapatalk

 

[kwinter]

For a few years now this topic as kind of been discussed, in my opinion the CCR cave instructor should be well versed in the caves they teach in, I also cannot see how an Instructor can show all the need to know and nice to know's to the student about their rigg if they don't dive it themselves, therefore at least be certified on the unit. I also see from this that compatibility between the student and instructor mind set is very important and a mentor relationship in this arena is important if the intention is to push cave diving to another level using Rebreather technology. Most agency guide minimum standards this doesn't mean we have to teach to it or accept it a students in training. Just my 2 cents.

Well versed in the caves? Absolutely. Showing the student all the "need-to-know and nice-to-knows about their rig?" Unnecessary (or at least that's what we're discussing). Please tell us some of those features of their rebreather that are specific to cave diving that they shouldn't already know about and be well-versed in before getting to that point. And as for "pushing cave diving to another level using rebreather technology," that is not the purpose of CCR Cave training. It isn't about expedition diving or big pushes. Most people who take a CCR Cave class are not OC cave trained, so they aren't pushing their cave diving to any different level.

Everyone keeps talking about how the student "should" know their rebreather, and "should" be able to dive the unit correctly. How can a cave instructor know if their student does or does not have mastery of the unit if the instructor does not have at least a minimum level of knowledge of the unit?

And I think we can all agree that at least the user level course is required before this minimum level of knowledge is acquired.

Your first point is well taken. But that goes for any advanced level training, whether CCR or OC. How does the instructor for an Advanced Nitrox class know that the student is well versed in the principles of nitrox? How does an OC Cave instructor know that the student is comfortable with buoyancy control and all of his gear? I think the answer is that on the first controlled dive in the cavern zone, he can tell. Do you think you would be unable to tell if a rEvo diver has a basic mastery of his CCR if you started him in a class? I will grant that you might not be able to help him gain that mastery in order to complete the cave training, but we are discussing whether that is really your job. Or is it more appropriate to send the student away with the admonishment to come back after gaining more skill with the rEvo? I had been planning to go down to cave country in a couple of weeks to do some long-missed cave diving during my spring break. But since I just completed my rEvo crossover and feel like a total novice, I'm going to postpone the trip. If I were coming down to take a CCR Cave class, I would certainly expect the instructor to bounce me whether he was a rEvo diver or not. If he didn't, I would know I got the wrong instructor. So I don't think I agree with the second part of your statement either. I think that even without taking a user level course yourself, you would be able to assess someone's knowledge and comfort levels with their CCR. Maybe I just have greater confidence in you than you have in yourself.