Banning

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Iain3

Iain3

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Just bringing up the topic of banning as the thread I would comment on was closed before I could input, So a new topic on banning (and Forum discipline) in general, not related to Dave Sutton.

I think a permenant ban does not seem in the nature of this forum, which was intially setup due to a discussion on facebook about the banning and censorship going on in RBW. I felt it was supposed to be a more free and open community.

I can understand justification for a timed ban, 1 week for minor offences, 1 month for more serious or repeat offences, maybe even a year to teach someone that the way they behave is really inappropriate.

A permenant ban seems to me to be non-constructive, it doesn't give the banned user any reason to resolve issues or any prospect for a future outlet of their knowledge, and there is nothing to stop them creating a new user and causing trouble.

A permenant ban may be written in the terms and conditions of the forum, but they can surely be changed if that is what the majority want. Ultimately this is a community, relying on the input of its members to survive, if there is a strong enough desire for change it must be possible.
 
My response is also unrelated to Dave, since he is an acquaintance of mine. But in general I support lifting a ban as soon as the person has acknowledged wrong-doing and apologized. If someone does not believe he did anything wrong, the infraction will only occur again and again. Or at the very least he should acknowledge the infraction and state his plan to refrain from it in the future, even if he doesn't agree that it was wrong. I think this is the least that can be done to maintain civility. The severity of the initial infraction is far less important to me than the sincerity of the individual to refrain from repeating it.

No ban should be permanent unless the offender refuses to cooperate.
 
Since we don't have (and I certainly don't need to see) a full transcript of all that transpired between Dave and the moderators, we're left having to trust the mods that Dave crossed a line. If you can't trust the moderators at all, then you're left with the inmates running the asylum and ultimately, through threads like this, that'll kill the forum just as dead as biased heavy-handed moderation killed other forums.
 
I think forums should lighten-up. Post can be moderated, folks can be sent "on holiday" for a bit. But overall if you don't have people chipping in with comments you don't have much left - other than threads on banning and other mundane things.

Forums needs people with opinions. I agree that some folks can be disruptive - and to a point that's OK, after that point a bit of holiday for them works well - permanent banning seem so pointless.

Matt.
 
lamont said:
Since we don't have (and I certainly don't need to see) a full transcript of all that transpired between Dave and the moderators, we're left having to trust the mods that Dave crossed a line. If you can't trust the moderators at all, then you're left with the inmates running the asylum and ultimately, through threads like this, that'll kill the forum just as dead as biased heavy-handed moderation killed other forums.
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Is there something in the original post that you didn't understand? Language barrier?
Iain3 said:
So a new topic on banning (and Forum discipline) in general, [BOLD]not related to Dave Sutton.[/BOLD]
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Silencing people belittles the forum. It makes it less as there are less opinions. If those opinions are polarising, then they probably have merit.

Plus, a clear statement as to why someone is banned may serve to stop all these threads on banning!

cheers

Andy
 
Like I already mentioned. I have been banned from Rebreather world as well as Deco stop. The funny thing about that was the post in question was on Rebreather World. I hardly ever posted on Deco stop, but got Banned for life there as well. Reason given... None.
Tony at the Deco stop heard about it and very graciously allowed me back. A week or so later I said hi to some one on the site and was banned within an hour or so. Tony had nothing to do with it.
It is clear to me that certain people can say what they want on these sites because of their affiliation with forum owners and are protected by said owners.
I have learned to use a forum for information and in most cases take the rest of the retoric with a grain of salt.
When some one is banned we are all censored. Perhaps banning should be a personal choice and a fuction of a block button we choose or choose not to activate. I for one do not like others deciding who I am "allowed" to talk with.
 
I can see and understand all of the points that have been made on this matter, but in the end it is not our choice or right to know all the information that transpires between users and the forum. Some things are just up to the management ..... period. Remember this and all other forums are not a democracy where the users get to make the decisions.

Example for you to ponder an answer to - and yes this is about myself:
I have been a constant thorn in kevin juergensons side for a long time now. I bash his hh electronics on a fairly regular basis. it is much like beating a dead horse at times but I feel very strongly about it and feel that it is my right to express my opinions and share my experiences on the matter. I was told by "the powers that be" to "cool it" or "else". I did not feel that I was doing anything wrong and did not "cool it" and was temporarily banned from that other forum. My ban was lifted after a bit and I once again posted my usual hh response. I was banned again and it stayed in effect until the new owners took over. Things went along fine for awhile until kevin started crying to the owners of that forum and I was once again asked to "cool it". I did not, and will not, do so. I have refrained from making anti-hammerhead posts in many threads and tend to be a bit more relaxed about the subject now. I have not even let Garth bait me into it although he keeps trying. If I get banned over there again, so be it, but I do not think that I am doing anything wrong.

Should I be banned and my voice silenced? Should all the PM's about this be made public? Are my posts (all of them) a positive or negative towards the forum? Should I call kevin and see if he will buy my silence (another long story)? Should I just accept the fact that I was treated unfairly and unethically and keep my keyboard quiet?
 
I guess, DSix36, it depends what type of community is desired and what the purpose is - I see more benefits from inclusion and self-regulation (including moderation and holidays).

I quite like to hear robust opinion, like yours.

I quite like to hear the odd rant (not that you or I would ever rant :-).

I'm less fussed about circular-argument and continuous obfuscation and "hidden" agenda - but to a point they are fine and to a point I am free to stay away from them (but I rarely do as I like a good fight :-).

I was not banned on RBW. I was "on holiday" for a while when I suggested that the forum is worth nothing without the posters, it is the posts that the members come to see not the adverts (but not this post, lol).

If we had more interesting posters there would be more interesting posts and less chit-chat about banning (isn't this the 3rd or 4th thread of this type recently?).

Matt.
 
kwinter said:
Is there something in the original post that you didn't understand? Language barrier?
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Sorry, it was late here and I didn't realize that we were playing a stupid game of talking about something without talking about it...

Then in the general sense, there's certain things which deserve a permaban, and threatening a lawsuit would certainly be one of those. And that wouldn't be a transgression that could ever be walked back because once someone opens that door, as someone who ran a forum you have to assume that the person is only going to be generating more liability for you in the future. And since we're being general, threats of physical violence against a forum member could also be severe enough to warrant a permaban. Stalking behavior. A pattern of ripping off forum members in classified ads. There's lots of behaviors which go above-and-beyond simply being a loud-mouthed opinionated asshole that moderators have to deal with.
 
lamont said:
Sorry, it was late here and I didn't realize that we were playing a stupid game of talking about something without talking about it...

Then in the general sense, there's certain things which deserve a permaban, and threatening a lawsuit would certainly be one of those. And that wouldn't be a transgression that could ever be walked back because once someone opens that door, as someone who ran a forum you have to assume that the person is only going to be generating more liability for you in the future. And since we're being general, threats of physical violence against a forum member could also be severe enough to warrant a permaban. Stalking behavior. A pattern of ripping off forum members in classified ads. There's lots of behaviors which go above-and-beyond simply being a loud-mouthed opinionated asshole that moderators have to deal with.
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Me or Kwinter? :uhh:
 
zirk said:
Like I already mentioned. I have been banned from Rebreather world as well as Deco stop. The funny thing about that was the post in question was on Rebreather World.
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At least you got banned on RBW! I got my settings messed with, effectively banning from posting or responding (until I changed them) straight after the previous anger-management-challenged-owners decided to take umbrage at something I posted on Yorkshiredivers! Speaking in generalities, of course...

It still strikes me that there is a theme going on with forum 'owners'. They are big enough to take on the challenge of running the forum, but not big enough to spell it out when they decide to ban someone for life. Instead, we get these 'generalisations' etc.

Now there's a :deadhorse deserving it!

cheers

Andy
 
I run a motorbike forum with 40k members. As you can imagine conversations were often getting out of control and the moderation system wasn't working for both management and members. I don't think I need to say the members are the most important part so it needed to work for them. We now have a visible warning system where other members can report posts/users where they get an infringement. The user and only that user can see next to their name that they have x points and that they are close to being banned. In nearly all instances this stops the conversation from escalating and over time the points are automatically removed. Of course moderators are alerted to the notices and can change the course of action but as standard we have multiples of 7 day bans. Longest ban has been for 2 weeks and number of infringements has dramatically dropped almost completely after moving to this process. The only people we give life long bans to are spammers. A permanent ban is pointless, all you are banning is the users identity.
 
The whole banning thing seems rather childish to me like sandbox talk you upset me so now you cant play with my dump truck,, we are all for the most part adults and although our opinions may vary we are supposed to have fought for freedom to speak which seems to be continuously restricted more to a freedom to say what some people approve. not trying to upset anyone as im impartial but i think it is rather silty that in todays society people can receive a life time ban for telling it as they see it,, have we become so sensitive we cannot hear another opinion or is it that it matters so much what everyone else thinks.
 
There shouldnt be any need for banning, but then there also shouldnt be any need for legal letters etc.
 
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I agree that there should not be a need for legal letters, but also realize that type of communication is the proper (legal) venue for voicing a grievance. It's a hell of a lot better than some guy showing up at your front door wanting to beat your ass.

A news commentator said this on the radio lately,"As a Country, we have gone from being the land of free to being the land of the offended." I have to agree.

I'm done with this thread.... I'm going diving
 
This isn't my house, if the owner/s inform me i'm annoying him/her/them I have a choice of modifying my behaviour, leaving or being asked to leave.

I don't feel like I'm entitled to be here, I don't even know where here is! :)

Freedom of speech involves your body, and your property only.
 
Back in the day, before adverts covered the forums, the forums were very informative and yes, sometimes loud. On the whole I found them very useful. Now, that there are a large number of manufacturers, all trying to be the leader, things have greatly deteriorated. There seems to be too many personal agendas in the power structures of most forums. Most seem to be very intolerant to any type of criticism. I found it particularly egregious at RBW after Stuart sold out and before the new owners recently took over.

Of course it is generally a normal response in that no one likes to be critiqued on their endeavors, but now a days it seems any remarks except rave exaltations are simply not tolerated. The power has shifted from the members at large to the few with the money. Perhaps a forum with a small subscription fee and no advertisers could work. Just an idea. Another option could be advertisers from outside the field of diving.

Safe Diving

Dale
 
we all live in a country with laws? we abide by those laws? (mostly) we accept those laws?
The members are entitled to opinions. However as adults we must present our opinions with respect to the other member's opinions. When we give our opinions and aggressively put down others opinions, we are breaking the "laws" of the forum and preventing others from having their say.
This system isn't perfect, but it is what we have and we need to work with it as best as possible.
I'm sure the owners of this forum aren't interested in spending good $$ for a module upgrade that allows people to act inappropriately, wait a few days then do it again.
We know the rules (as a member we are meant to have read the T&C) and we know the consequences, so why push them?
Please lets talk about CCR diving and not politics... its what we are all here for.
 
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