Modified MAV from my Sentinel for my JJ-CCR

Mattp

New Member
Hi folks I have been asked to provide a bit of background on how I manage pluggable gas to feed off-board gases to my JJ-CCR.

first off 90% of my dives I dive standard JJ-MAV on the o2 and no MAV on diluent for all dives to around 70m as i don't see the need for this config and its complication but on deeper divers i do like the idea of more options to plug in gas.

I have always like the Configurations fitted to my Boris and Sentinel so i stole them and re configured them to fit my JJ this allows full isolation of the primary supplies if I have a gas loss of failure at the same time allows me to plug in and feed all components like solenoid, BCD, BOV with off board gases.

IMG_3637.jpg
 
Really don't understand what you are trying to do here, but happy to learn. What does this allow that adding the JJ dil MAV doesn't.
 
Really don't understand what you are trying to do here, but happy to learn. What does this allow that adding the JJ dil MAV doesn't.

with the flow of hoses and the built in isolator in the MAV when i shut it and plug in gas it then routes back to all components ADV, BCD,BOV each of which can be isolated if its component failure and not gas loss or first stage failure.

ITS MORE COMPLICATED BUT SO IS DEEP EXTREME DIVING:spin:
 
.....or why it's under 'Team Diving' :confused:

Nick, probems are that divers mod gear all day long and no one else understands what or how to use the system to help in emergency Consistency with switch block use and procedures in diving PSCR has been around in team diving for over a decade why not the same in CCR?
 
Nick, probems are that divers mod gear all day long and no one else understands what or how to use the system to help in emergency Consistency with switch block use and procedures in diving PSCR has been around in team diving for over a decade why not the same in CCR?
Following that logic, all posts about kit configuration would come under the same heading.
 
I dived my Sentinel using off-board diluent with this set up on 100m wrecks off Alderney. Would disagree that it's COMPLICATED otherwise a Muppet like me wouldn't have been able to figure it out, especially as I didn't take an instructor led course :smackbum:

Any muppet can dive to 100m:big: but can you return when it all fails? Introducing more components may bring advantages but also introduces more failures
 
Could be interesting with an description of the routine to change gas, how and when and how to verify.

What’s the advantage for this O2 MAV contra the standard O2 MAV, doest the sentinel model supply the solenoid when off-board?
 
Hi Matt,
I like this new subsection and have been following your posts.

You are probably aware that off board gas options are being looked into by some of the team I dive with and so I had a few questions for you.

Firstly, what type of connection does the Sentinel MAV take?

I really like the concept of being able to feed the ADV, BOV and wing with offboard. This kind of setup is my ideal. However, do you feel the extra complexity and potential failures outweighs the advantages?

I'm trying to keep my setup inline with the mindset that either the unit works and we dive it. It has a minor problem and we fix it and abort. But if it has a major/multiple failures we bail out, go home and the unit can hang on for the ride. With this in mind, in what situation can you see the need for multiple plug ins?

Sent from my XT905 using Tapatalk 2
 
The off board swageloks are one of the things I dislike about the Sentinel which is why I find it interesting someone wants to put them on a JJ.

My thoughts (and I know others have differnent opions) were.

Have no real interest in off board being able to feed the BOV. If I've bailed out I want a high performance reg and lose all the extra clutter of the loop.

Wing with off board. As I use a dry suit for bouyancy this isn't an advantage. In fact its a potential disadvantage as it means that you end up having a DS hose and swagelok hose on a bailout cylinder which can be messy

Which just leaves feeding the adv which you can do with the existing MAV, without having to have an extra hose on bailout and introducing a hole bunch of extra failure points in the form of extra o-rings (there's 6 inside each gas block), extra hoses etc

The other disadvantage is that unless you turn off the on board dil, due to the routing of the off board going back to the on board first stage, the two tanks will equalise. OK if they are the same mix, but if not and you make that mistake, you have no idea what dil you are now using.

Still not sure why the manifold is shown in the picture. That's one of the first things that gets dumped by Sentinel users as its only use is when you need flexibility in hose lengths due to jumping between 2 and 3l dil. If you use the same size tank, take the manifold off and use a 90 degree LP converter.
 
The off board swageloks are one of the things I dislike about the Sentinel which is why I find it interesting someone wants to put them on a JJ.
My thoughts exactly. My buddy Mark did something very similar and ditched it after a few dives.

If you want a standard configuration that people can understand and help with in an emergency, stick with the original JJ. What you've shown us in the original post does nothing to simplify matters as far as I can see.
 
Interesting points of discussion. If you keep the standard configuration what do you have plugged to your BOV at the surface or in the shallows when you are diving lean dil? For example if you have a cave with max depth 80-100m that runs shallow for a long while at the start then would you be happy to have hypoxic gas connected to your BOV for the early part of the dive? Or shore diving?
 
That's why we use a switch block arrangement. Different to Matt's and same every dive. But then again our experience prior to using JJs was RB80s so all of this is quite familiar.
 
Hi folks I have been asked to provide a bit of background on how I manage pluggable gas to feed off-board gases to my JJ-CCR.

first off 90% of my dives I dive standard JJ-MAV on the o2 and no MAV on diluent for all dives to around 70m as i don't see the need for this config and its complication but on deeper divers i do like the idea of more options to plug in gas.

I have always like the Configurations fitted to my Boris and Sentinel so i stole them and re configured them to fit my JJ this allows full isolation of the primary supplies if I have a gas loss of failure at the same time allows me to plug in and feed all components like solenoid, BCD, BOV with off board gases.

View attachment 3093

I used to have a Sentinel and now I have a JJ. There were some useful features on the Sentinel gas blocks that I miss having on my JJ.

So I like what you have done here.

Although I hated the QC4 connections they were so big and unwieldy.

I want to be able to isolate the JJ ADV without having to reach so far back if you fit one directly. The Sentinel gas block would let you do this.

I want to be able to plug in offboard diluent and use it through the ADV as well as MAV. The Sentinel gas block would let you do this.

I don't really want to plumb in the BOV so not bothered about flow rate. But this would be a nice to have.

Would like the option to feed wing, for when I don't want to use suit for buoyancy.

I want the block to be about as big as the JJ manual add for the O2, not as huge as the Sentinel.

I don't believe there is any block solution out these that does what I want, or at least I have not found it.

Any muppet can dive to 100m:big: but can you return when it all fails.

Don't like the aggro here though, respect your fellow 100m CCR divers they are not muppets until proven guilty.

Ar cienu,
TB.
 
I rather suspect the aggro is due to there being so little in the way of explanation.

From what I can see, which may not be complete, this is pretty well a solution that has already been reached with far simpler ideas. But who can tell? I can't...

What I do know is a simple swivel + hose has seen me add a Q6 connector to my diliuent line, allowing me to add off-board diluent to the entire rig. My way to isolate the ADV is the cylinder valve. If I need to be OC that much, complete with an ADV failure, then I need to be off the unit completely.

On the O2 side, I have a needle valve, so if there is a closed solenoid failure, I'll need to do nothing apart from monitor I have the O2 flow in the ballpark. If it fails open, I feather the O2 cylinder valve. I guess if I really want off-board O2, I will add another Q6 connector and hose to the O2 line.

To tell my diving compadres that I have off-board plumbed in, and will or will not be breathing off it is about as difficult as it gets.

Without a clear explanation of what Matt's setup is, I can't comment or consider it. THIS is a tad frustrating, as I can't learn anything from his post...

cheers

Andy
 
What I do know is a simple swivel + hose has seen me add a Q6 connector to my diliuent line, allowing me to add off-board diluent to the entire rig.

Assuming you are taking about your JJ here..... Does whole rig include offboard to the ADV, if so how ?

My way to isolate the ADV is the cylinder valve. If I need to be OC that much, complete with an ADV failure, then I need to be off the unit completely.

I see what you mean. But I want to isolate ADV as standard practice on reaching bottom and leave it isolated until end of dive, but without depressurising the system. I will manually add diluent during bottom phase if i need it. But also able to turn on quickly if I want to eg at surface.

I guess if I really want off-board O2, I will add another Q6 connector and hose to the O2 line.

My JJ came with offboard connector for the O2 side manual add using normal seatec style connector.

In fact I've also been using this for diluent (clearly only one at a time) but obviously it's manual add only, and I want to drive ADV.

Ar cienu,
TB.
 
Hi Clare,

I totally agree and my post was largely rhetorical: I think offboard pluggable is essential as soon as you start with hypoxic gases.

I'm less interested in being able to solve problems by reconfiguring the unit underwater but it's essential that the BOV delivers breathable gas at all times. What would be nice, and what I'm pleased to see Matt taking a lead in, is standardising this approach so bottles can be passed around within and between teams, safeties can be shared etc. I guess the first step is the physical connection. QC6 seems to be a de facto standard with the guys I know at the moment.

Matt, I've only seen male on the unit, female on the stage but you have yours the other way around, any reason for that?
 
The size of the JJ MAV is actually what I like most about it, but not enough to actually make me think of abandoning my Sentinel with its' rather bulky but very functional MAVs.

Just to correct some of the "facts" that have been presented in the the thread based on how it actually works on the Sentinel:

1.
When having both onboard and offboard connected, IP of the first stages control which tank is emptied first. This mean that unless your offboard has higher IP than the onboard, gas will be taken from onboard. However, unless you are using the same gas both onboard and offboard there is no way to always know exactly what gas is being introduced in the loop unless the non-used tank is isolated.
The biggest advantage compared to the lovely&tiny JJ-MAV is the fact that both tanks can be connected at the same time. Especially for me that mainly dive in really cold waters it is so much easier to use a tank valve rather than having to fiddle with connectors. On the other hand, using QC4 (or QC6 that I have on my unit in order to be able to share bailout with RB80 divers in my team) is a lot easier than the DIN-connection on the JJ-MAV.

2.
Routing BOV through the Sentinel gas block is a huge NO-NO! The manual clearly state that fact, but obviously I had to try it anyway since it would be awesome in theory to be able to feed both loop and BOV on the same connection.
Already on 10-15 meters it is like sucking on an empty coke bottle, I actually ditched the idea without even trying deeper. It is possible to breath, but only in a very sloooooooow and steady pace. To give an example, a full breath would take roughly 12-15 seconds in order to not breath more than can actually be fed through the gas blocks.
Nothing you can actually stand for more than a minute or two when bailing while perfectly healthy. Imagine bailing and requiring +40 lpm of SAC.

Given that you can't really have both onboard and offboard open at the same time, I don't spend nights sleepless on not being able to feed the BOV this way. I still wanted to be able to have instant access to offboard gas via BOV though and came up with a solution that works for me:
Adding a second QC6-hose that is strapped under the DIL-MAV for easy access, feeding the BOV directly. Hose passes through the box in order to not cause more clutter than necessary. Whenever I need to bail, I bail to BOV. After evaluating and deciding that I could go back to the loop CCR/SCR while feeding from offboard I simply take the time needed to move the offboard connector from BOV to DIL.

Gas switches on BOV-feeder connection is performed in exactly the same way as trained on OC technical diving i.e. team verification before making the actual switch. This time, the switch is performed by replacing the feeding connection and testing breath-ability rather than changing the regulator in my mouth. This way, I can always have instant access to best available BO and this is insured by taking the time when it is actually available i.e. when all is good and calm. In theory, I can even switch gas without taking the BOV out of my mouth. I've tried it as a drill, but I doubt that I'd manage by myself without help from a buddy if I would suffer from an actual CO2-hit with minimum time between breaths. Works like a dream at least to 90m where I sadly had to test the setup for real :P
The good side is that it didn't disappoint me :)

This solution works whenever diving with other CCR-divers, but I feel that I lack some speed when diving with OC-buddies. Mixed team diving for me doesn't happen very often and only on relatively shallow dives with limited amount of tanks all containing breathable gas. If I would do deep dives with OC-divers I would really consider adding a second OC-regulator on a long hose around my neck that also is fed through the BOV-QC6. This way I know that as long as I take the needed time to validate during the actual switch I can always get the correct gas to an OOG buddy regardless of amount of stage tanks carried by myself without having to take my loop out of the mouth.

/Jonas
 
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For those unfamiliar with the Sentinel MAV gas flow. An easy way to remember how to shut it off is "Shut Up" It is shut when it is up :-)
 
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