The first 70 feet of a dive /gas switching

zirk

New Member
Gas switching... I now have my revo plumbed to receive a BOV and can add off board gas to the system at will via Qd's. The BOV is plumbed to the dill as well. Off board: Left side lean gas, right side rich ( usually 50%). If I am diving a 10/50 dill and 10/50 off board, how are you guys handling the first 70 feet of the descent? Would you plug the rich gas into the BOV and make a change at 70 feet or just stay plugged in to the 10/50 and be very ready to go to your rich bail out reg should there be a problem. I'm not keen on having a depth inappropriate gas so close to my mouth should a problem arise. I can shut off the dill from the Bov as I installed an isolator valve. I do mostly ocean dives current is a big factor and hot drops are common.
 
I have / have had a similar set up.....

1. I hate 10/50, just not that useful, I use the same set up as yours but use 15/50 and I will breath that happily, do you really need something that low on O2?

2. I hate coupling QD's underwater, they all include some water and that's a service issue down the line. If you can avoid it with 15/50 then do so.

If I had a choice on things other than your gas I would use IP pressure differences and plug the 50% into the manifold on the boat and disconnect as part of the bubble check. You would need to include an IP check on all connected tanks as part of your standard set up but as it's only being used to half a bar from surface there's little risk of the others creeping up above the 50%. I have done this with deep bail out and the IP will entirely drain the higher IP tank down to it's IP pressure before it swaps onto the lower one.
 
one other ? why would you have 10/50 offboard for your apparently bail option. Good rule to follow always have bratheable gas available to your BOV.
Gabe
 
If descending and still above 6m then you should have been on at least 70% O2, no harm in bolting to the surface and sorting yourself out there. If deeper than 6m breath the 10/?? And sort yourself out, i.e switch to your 50% and ascend.

If at 6m or less on Deco and you need to bail then you may wish your 50% was plumbed in, but you should have had plenty of time to do that, all your stops from 21m up. I use a swage lock on a switch block, but never got round to putting my 50% on it, I really must do that.
 
I've done a fair few dives where a truely hypoxic gas was needed but not that many. I'd use 10/70 though to have a gas with a good wob and narcotic potential. Is 10/50 just a lazy option or truely needed?

Anyway - I digress. Descend/surface swim with breathable gas available. Same goes for ascent. Switch at good opportunity - bubble check for me normally which I carry out at 9.

Why on earth wouldn't you? Sorry - but if switching gas is a difficult skill/to be avoided, practise more and don't do the deep dives - certainly not those which require less than 15 per cent o2 - until you can.

Breathing the 'wrong' gas for a short time as a stop gap has killed divers. Your surface swim and descent are very dangerous times of the dive when you can find things which have broken/gone wrong.
 
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Would you plug the rich gas into the BOV and make a change at 70 feet or just stay plugged in to the 10/50 and be very ready to go to your rich bail out reg should there be a problem.

I have said it before and I will say it again.

YOU MUST ALWAYS HAVE A BREATHABLE GAS FOR YOUR CURRENT DEPTH CONNECTED TO YOUR BOV.

There is no excuse not to, even for only a few breaths. There has already been at least one known death from a hypoxic gas at the surface when a problem developed at the start of a dive. And virtually all of us have experience with gas switches on OC, so it shouldn't be taxing on CCR. You can make the process a bit easier with plumbing, but you could also use the second stage on your 50% bailout bottle as OC travel gas for the first 6 meters and then switch to your BOV/DSV and do your bubble check. And do the reverse on ascent.

One problem with having hypoxic gas onboard is that you can't unclip and doff your offboard tanks at the end of the dive without losing your breathable gas to the BOV. My onboard tank always has something breathable at the surface. A single offboard cylinder of hypoxic gas serves as both deep bailout and diluent.
 
Buddy:

You're two courses away from 10/50... you've not even finished recreational trimix yet. You have a LOT to worry about before you worry about hypoxic mixes. Several years of other things to worry about actually. You have loads of normoxic mix diving ahead of you first. And 10/50 is lazy mans gas. When you need 10% you need the other number to be 70.

But to think WAY ahead for you:

The rEvo has as one of it's two main achilles heels the lack of an ADV isolator. The way you would handle it on a Meg would be to let the loop come to 0.7 on the surface prebreathe, shut the ADV isolator, get to 20 feet using only 02 on the 02 bypass valve, and then opening up the ADV. Your ADV is then closed at the bottom (unless you are flushing) and you never have diluent available to your mouth again. Bear in mind that the Meg SOP is for the ADV Isolator to be CLOSED unless you are descending or flushing and that the rEvo way is for the ADV to always be open.

On the rEvo, you cannot isolate the ADV. You can turn off the cylinder but you then lose the wings. One way to remediate this is to run a short hose along the left side of the scrubber to a 2 port Omniswivel port, continue one line to your wings and then add another hose over your shoulder to an isolator, then back down over your shoulder to the plug-in point at the bottom of the rig. You "turn the corner" at the lower point by using yet another Omniswivel 3 port fitting, with the top two ports used for the inlet-with-slider hose and the other for the return to the rig hose. While you are at it you might as well add a QD to the bottom of it and then you can plug in an offboard diluent there and feed the rig with it after isolating the slider feeding onboard gas to the block.

If you do this, you mimic a Meg save for one thing: A Meg has a third add valve, the mixed gas bypass valve. So even with the ADV isolated you can have another diluent plugged into your mixed gas bypass valve. You can mimic that on the rEvo by adding a manual bypass valve with the input into the port on the exhaust valve. That offboard gas add point (which can be used for 02 as well) is a requirement for ANDI mixed gas training, so you will be doing that mod before we dive. Putting in the ADV isolator hosing on the rEvo is not a factory option although it probably should be), so I am on a teeter-totter regarding what I like to see technnically and what is a factory setup which is what I am obligated to teach. Leave it at that.

None of this deals with a BOV either...


You can abandon all of the above and do gas switching from one diluent to another using the system you already are playing with, if you carry appropriate mixes in the appropriate spots. For ocean diving I suggest breathable mix in your onboard so you can have OC when swimming to/from the ladder (assuming that you drop off your stages in the water). Cave diving is a different thing... there is no surface swim. So everything needs to be balanced against environment.


The bottom line is that there are MANY ways to do it safely, but IMHO you need to add some hoses to a rEvo to do it safely. On the Meg... it comes ready to use out of the box.


Now:

Your open circuit options for that first 20 feet can change according to the way you are rigged and the environment, but you will not be carrying 10/50 in a stage bottle. We can discuss all of it on your Level 4 Mix Course but you will not be using hypoxic mix until you are in a level 5 course. For now your best friend will be 18/45 and then 15/55 after that. 10/70 is a long way off.


JJ guys: I found the lack of an ADV isolator very puzzling on the JJ. And the clearances there make the normal Omniswivel shutoff too big to fit. I stuck a 6 inch regulator hose on the ADV, the slider to that, and then shortened the ADV feed hose. Anyone else think about this?


Dave


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JJ guys: I found the lack of an ADV isolator very puzzling on the JJ. And the clearances there make the normal Omniswivel shutoff too big to fit. I stuck a 6 inch regulator hose on the ADV, the slider to that, and then shortened the ADV feed hose. Anyone else think about this?
I may be wrong, but the later ADVs (as on the CE JJ) are rounded-off offering more space. I think this was primarily to allow the use of Miflex hoses where the hex fitting need room to turn, but it may allow room for a shut-off.

I had a AP shut-off on mine, but it had to be fitted to the banjo with the latter removed from the unit. I took it off and fitted an Omniswivel QC for convenience, but I'm not diving hypoxic diluents.
 
I agree with all points made - 10/50 really serves no purpose. When I'm working sub 400fsw, we're in the 8 or 9/70 range. Why deal with the narcosis?

If you're not diving that deep, I see no reason to think about hypoxic mixes. Even for those of us with experience using them, I think the consensus is that for day to day diving it has the potential to cause more problems than not.

My ocean config (for all depths) is to dive air onboard. At 20fsw, I do my cell verification flush with O2, then switch dil's if the dive calls for it. I've done this in two ways - with a 3-way ball valve on the dil side, and more recently with a single QD on the dil side - whatever is plugged in feeds everything - BOV, MAV, ADV, wing. In the shallows I have that small onboard bottle of air dil to get me up to the surface, and/or surface swim if needed. In practice, these small 2 or 3L dil bottles of any mix down deep is insufficient for OC bailout, so my deep 'drive gas' is always a larger cylinder (left side) which doubles as deep dil and deep OC bail. simple

For anything down in the 200-300fsw range, it really isnt that much trouble to mix up something in the 15 to 18 fO2 range. You have to boost O2 anyway, yes?
 
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I may be wrong, but the later ADVs (as on the CE JJ) are rounded-off offering more space. I think this was primarily to allow the use of Miflex hoses where the hex fitting need room to turn, but it may allow room for a shut-off.

I had a AP shut-off on mine, but it had to be fitted to the banjo with the latter removed from the unit. I took it off and fitted an Omniswivel QC for convenience, but I'm not diving hypoxic diluents.


Segue to say "thanks" and then I will start a new thread if needed to continue... thanks, and mine has Miflex so I'll try removing the Banjo to see if I can add the slider there. I "hear" that Omnisvivel has a smaller diameter sloder available as well.


Dave


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This one fits OK on the JJ:

apflowstop_zps4d5050cf.jpg
 
When diving hypoxic mixes I do not have my BOV plumbed into anything different. I just don't use it shallow. I start the dive with 100% O2 in the loop do a cell check at 6m and then continue downwards adding dil as necessary. My ADV has a slider valve so I turn it off shallow (Actually typically stays off most of the time) I add as needed with the DIL MAV.
All of my BO bottles regardless of mix have an inflator valve that could be plumbed into my MAVs on either side but I don't use those unless I need to.
On surface swims I ONLY add O2.
 
Gas switching... I now have my revo plumbed to receive a BOV and can add off board gas to the system at will via Qd's. The BOV is plumbed to the dill as well. Off board: Left side lean gas, right side rich ( usually 50%). If I am diving a 10/50 dill and 10/50 off board, how are you guys handling the first 70 feet of the descent? Would you plug the rich gas into the BOV and make a change at 70 feet or just stay plugged in to the 10/50 and be very ready to go to your rich bail out reg should there be a problem. I'm not keen on having a depth inappropriate gas so close to my mouth should a problem arise. I can shut off the dill from the Bov as I installed an isolator valve. I do mostly ocean dives current is a big factor and hot drops are common.



10/50 Is breathable below 6m

Above 6m i have 02 by manual flush or off board 50%OC

ATB

Mark
 
I've done a fair few dives where a truely hypoxic gas was needed but not that many. I'd use 10/70 though to have a gas with a good wob and narcotic potential. Is 10/50 just a lazy option or truely needed?

Anyway - I digress. Descend/surface swim with breathable gas available. Same goes for ascent. Switch at good opportunity - bubble check for me normally which I carry out at 9.

Why on earth wouldn't you? Sorry - but if switching gas is a difficult skill/to be avoided, practise more and don't do the deep dives - certainly not those which require less than 15 per cent o2 - until you can.

Breathing the 'wrong' gas for a short time as a stop gap has killed divers. Your surface swim and descent are very dangerous times of the dive when you can find things which have broken/gone wrong.


Personaly i dont gas switch as I see it as being unnessary

I am on CCR so i can dictate whats in the loop reguardless of any low PP02 diluient is. If i have to go off loop I can go BOV below 6m and OC above 6m

I perfer that as an option rather than maintaining a gas switching system and running the risk of screwing up a gas switch

ATB

Mark
 
Personaly i dont gas switch as I see it as being unnessary

I am on CCR so i can dictate whats in the loop reguardless of any low PP02 diluient is. If i have to go off loop I can go BOV below 6m and OC above 6m

I perfer that as an option rather than maintaining a gas switching system and running the risk of screwing up a gas switch

ATB

Mark

I tend to agree with this philosophy. I have seen some pretty complicated gas switching systems. Most of which seemed easier to screw up then just not breathing your dill while shallow. Which I already don't do for purposes of cell checks etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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