Mouthpiece Retaining Head-strap

[gianaameri]

I really want to avoid corrupting this thread with CE and UK Health and Safety Executive (HSE) discussion and also, as you have subsequently recognised in another post, this thread is not about BOVs. However to address one of your points, which might mislead members who teach professionally in the UK, if your BOV has been tested in accordance with CE Harmonised Standard EN250 (the design and test standard for open circuit regulators), so long as the rebreather is also CE marked, then as a professional diver at work, which a diving Instructor is classed as if he/she receives remuneration for that work, you are compliant with related legislation (modifications excluded). With regards to the HSE diving inspectorate, with whom I frequently interface with on behalf of my clients to address complex diving operations that fall out with the UK Diving at Work Regulations, HSE is there to help diving contractors follow good dive management practice and that they comply with their legal obligations as employers of divers and that divers and diving supervisors do likewise. Also in the event of a diving accident at work, HSE is there to investigate the incident in the same way as the HSE would investigate a builder falling off a roof on a building site or someone loosing an arm in a saw mill. Thankfully the days of the industrial revolution working environment are long gone and we expect to return home safely from a days work and that includes professional divers and diving students under training. In my experience I have found HSE Diving Inspectors, all of whom are ex professional civilian or military divers, to be reasonable, pragmatic people and whilst of course I can not speak on their behalf, any diver at work who uses a none CE marked BOV will be able to convincingly argue that good practice is being followed and they have enhanced diving safety by using the BOV. This argument will be further reinforced if a CE marked off board bailout first and second stage regulator is available to revert to once the initial use of the BOV has been initiated.

This is in my and many others opinion an important safety related thread that has the potential to save life. I'm sure therefore that the majority of the membership will feel the same, please no more HSE / CE talk on this thread, by all means start a new one if you want to but lets not put people off this topic by unnecessary discussion on unrelated bureaucracy that bores the pants of most, including myself. No more shooting from the hip, lets stay on topic. Rgds Paul

Paul,

you got it wrong, I believe.

Anyone modifying their rebreather with a non-manufacturer approved and non manufacturer/Notified Body CE tested BOV is breaching CE.

EN250 only refers to the OC part of the BOV.

The CC part of the BOV needs to be tested as a unit with the original rebreather it is intended to be sold with in accordance to the applicable standard (not EN250, but EN14143).

I have no issue replacing my DSV with a BOV (if ISC does not supply a CE approved BOV with the Meg), but anyone who does that, if the BOV is not from the same manufacturer of the rebreather and tested and CE approved by that manufacturer and Notified Body, you are breaking CE.

The manufacturer may argue, with good reason, that you modified the rebreather with a non-manufacturer approved and CE tested part, and that the manufacturer is not liable.

Furthermore, your unit as an instructor is no longer CE as it is modified with manufacturer unapproved parts (you put a Golem BOV on a Meg, you lost CE).

Ask the HSE, and let us know, but the user has to know they are breaking CE and understand the implications and take responsibility for it (whether you/anybody feel the topic is boring is irrelevant because, like it or not, it is the regulations which apply to us in EU land).

Of relevance to the topic, APD makes an extra wide mouthpiece which may improve WOB over other non APD mouthpieces... if you put a Draeger Crown Strap AND the mouthpiece opening is smaller than the original APD mouthpiece, I see a potential for a CE issue on such a simple modification (but I would prefer to believe this is a grey area... only APD could say if using non-APD mouthpieces is an issue).

 

[Paul Haynes]

Paul,

you got it wrong, I believe.

Anyone modifying their rebreather with a non-manufacturer approved and non manufacturer/Notified Body CE tested BOV is breaching CE.

EN250 only refers to the OC part of the BOV.

The CC part of the BOV needs to be tested as a unit with the original rebreather it is intended to be sold with in accordance to the applicable standard (not EN250, but EN14143).

I have no issue replacing my DSV with a BOV (if ISC does not supply a CE approved BOV with the Meg), but anyone who does that, if the BOV is not from the same manufacturer of the rebreather and tested and CE approved by that manufacturer and Notified Body, you are breaking CE.

The manufacturer may argue, with good reason, that you modified the rebreather with a non-manufacturer approved and CE tested part, and that the manufacturer is not liable.

Furthermore, your unit as an instructor is no longer CE as it is modified with manufacturer unapproved parts (you put a Golem BOV on a Meg, you lost CE).

Ask the HSE, and let us know, but the user has to know they are breaking CE and understand the implications and take responsibility for it (whether you/anybody feel the topic is boring is irrelevant because, like it or not, it is the regulations which apply to us in EU land).

Of relevance to the topic, APD makes an extra wide mouthpiece which may improve WOB over other non APD mouthpieces... if you put a Draeger Crown Strap AND the mouthpiece opening is smaller than the original APD mouthpiece, I see a potential for a CE issue on such a simple modification (but I would prefer to believe this is a grey area... only APD could say if using non-APD mouthpieces is an issue).

Sigh! What a disappointing response. For the greater good of the mouthpiece retaining strap safety message I made what I felt was a reasonable request to stay on topic and avoid unrelated CE / HSE discussion. I'm not continuing this discussion. Ciao

 

[lpartridge]

I am a fan of the gag strap. I find that it helps eliminate jaw fatigue. I can't figure out though how so many of you can get your hoods over your mask. I have tried in the past without success. I guess it could be that my face opening is too small.

So for me it's mask on, then gag strap over the mask strap.

Lynn Partridge

 

[gianaameri]

Sigh! What a disappointing response. For the greater good of the mouthpiece retaining strap safety message I made what I felt was a reasonable request to stay on topic and avoid unrelated CE / HSE discussion. I'm not continuing this discussion. Ciao

At least users will not be misled by your misconception about the implication of user modification to their equipment.

You cannot encourage modifications on one end, and yet not explain the user that by so doing, he is breaking CE.

You are right that some modifications are important and improve safety, but to promote them on web forums, without at the same time promoting the same with RESA and at the CE level, leaves the user in a no-win situation.

If the user modifies the unit, he will break CE.

If the user does not, he will be less safe.

I am pro modifications, especially the one you have been suggesting, but if CE does not change, the user should be informed the he/she may be breaking CE.

As an instructor and a professional, I believe you should be clear with the readers here and your students about the legal/regulatory implications of any modification you suggest.

Ciao!

 

[gianaameri]

I am a fan of the gag strap. I find that it helps eliminate jaw fatigue. I can't figure out though how so many of you can get your hoods over your mask. I have tried in the past without success. I guess it could be that my face opening is too small.

So for me it's mask on, then gag strap over the mask strap.

Lynn Partridge

I put the hood on first.

Then I slide the top of the hood backwards to clear the head (the hood is still around my neck, but the head has gone all the way through the hood face opening).

Then I put my mask on.

Then I slide the top of the hood back over my head covering the mask strap.

Hope this is clear and of help.

 

[erikradstrom]

At least users will not be misled by your misconception about the implication of user modification to their equipment.

You cannot encourage modifications on one end, and yet not explain the user that by so doing, he is breaking CE.

You are right that some modifications are important and improve safety, but to promote them on web forums, without at the same time promoting the same with RESA and at the CE level, leaves the user in a no-win situation.

If the user modifies the unit, he will break CE.

If the user does not, he will be less safe.

I am pro modifications, especially the one you have been suggesting, but if CE does not change, the user should be informed the he/she may be breaking CE.

As an instructor and a professional, I believe you should be clear with the readers here and your students about the legal/regulatory implications of any modification you suggest.

Ciao!

You just shoot your own foot gianaameri, you did just the same thing in the tread below. You recommend a BOV without informing about that he breaks CE.

http://www.ccrexplorers.com/showthread.php?t=14722

As long as the things make the gear work better I don´t think people care about CE. With that said, it´s not the same thing with using non tested gear. Even if they don´t have a CE stamp they can be tested.

I dive a deep pursuit lid on my classic! A fantastic piece of kit that the guy´s at Narked at 90 presented flow charts and everything on but some a-hole nagged about the CE test and made them stop selling it. As long as the kit is tested and proved working I would not hesitate to change it and break CE.

If the strap makes diving more comfortable why care? If something happens that strap will be the last thing they will look at.

 

[gianaameri]

You just shoot your own foot gianaameri, you did just the same thing in the tread below. You recommend a BOV without informing about that he breaks CE.

http://www.ccrexplorers.com/showthread.php?t=14722

As long as the things make the gear work better I don´t think people care about CE. With that said, it´s not the same thing with using non tested gear. Even if they don´t have a CE stamp they can be tested.

I dive a deep pursuit lid on my classic! A fantastic piece of kit that the guy´s at Narked at 90 presented flow charts and everything on but some a-hole nagged about the CE test and made them stop selling it. As long as the kit is tested and proved working I would not hesitate to change it and break CE.

If the strap makes diving more comfortable why care? If something happens that strap will be the last thing they will look at.

I am under no Duty of Care to inform or educate anybody about CE.

When I say something on the subject, I usually get shot and attacked.

Paul, being an instructor and in the UK under the HSE, owes a Duty of Care.

I agree with you though.

If it makes the product safer, so be it.

I'll break CE anytime to dive a safer rebreather, and would not dive a Meg without modifications.

However, that I do as a Homebuilder and as an end-user under my own responsibility and risk and natural right to self-preservation and freedom of choice.

It is an entirely different matter when a manufacturer/retailer in the EU or a professional does not follow rules and regulations.

You have to make a distinction about the two.

Notwithstanding the distinction, the fact is that the Draeger Crown Strap is a marvellous piece of kit and I use it and I would strongly recommend it (with a BOV).

 

[erikradstrom]

It is an entirely different matter when a manufacturer/retailer in the EU or a professional does not follow rules and regulations.

You have to make a distinction about the two.

Isn´t that a little two-faced? You can buy non CE gear and use it but how will you do that if the manufacturers have to follow the rules?

CE is great because it pushes the manufacturers to test their gear, but there are also companies within the EU that have tested their gear but does not have CE because of the costs involved. Things aren´t always black or white.

 

[gianaameri]

Isn´t that a little two-faced? You can buy non CE gear and use it but how will you do that if the manufacturers have to follow the rules?

CE is great because it pushes the manufacturers to test their gear, but there are also companies within the EU that have tested their gear but does not have CE because of the costs involved. Things aren´t always black or white.

In respect to Paul, I suggest this thread is split by the Mods here (and we go back to discussing the thread topic).

It is not intended to be a CE discussion.

Paul's "Crusade" is laudable and Paul is right in educating the diving community about safe diving practices.

The fact is though that as an end-user or an instructor we are in a no win situation when modifying a CE rebreather to make it safer.

I chose "safer" to "CE" (but this I can only do because I am an end-user and not a retailer or an instructor).

 

[WFO]

Internals modified for WOB improvement.

Dave

.

What's different? My first impression looking at the ray one is that the bore of the inner rotating sleeve could be bigger. But the spiders look well designed and the mushrooms looked to be of good quality.

only problem then is it does not cover the lips correctly, so can leak water in when unconscious

the Dräger bite piece with gag strap is really really very good engineered

Paul

I intend on getting one, but it's just a shame they don't help prevent failure due to the mouthpiece cable tie. I wonder if it would be worth adding some bits of bungee/O rings like the AP one.

 

[jcook]

I know this is a bit late in the thread, but I actually had the pleasure to meet Paul Haynes while he was teaching a CCR class in Florida. While he was out cleaning his loop, he took the time to explain to me why he believes the gag strap is important and how it saved his life. He even demonstrated how it works while we were having a chat. I finally got around to having one and am planning on trying it out on my next trip down to Florida. I mainly solo cave dive, so this is something that can truly save my life if I screw up. Many thanks to Paul.

 

[Garspeed]

In the mean time try a homemade retaining strap. Garspeed has made his own out of heavy duty elasticated strap, which appears to work well. Perhaps he can post a photograph here. Rgds Paul

Buddy Grebo has done above but here is my effort anyway, which I hope you like...

Homemade Gag Strap - made from old neoprene mask strap

BTW - we at CCR-X are very lucky to have some of the few people who have spent several decades working professionally designing, developing, testing and training people in CCR. We should fully embrace and appreciate anything that they choose to share with us in the manner that it is intended and whilst we may not agree with their views, we should at least respect their professionalism. If we do not, then lets not be surprised if they no longer choose to share their considerable experience with anyone!

 

[matt]

The advantage of Gar's strap is that it used the original APD mouthpiece.

APD have been vocal in the past that fitting a different mouthpiece (one that lets the mouth be more closed, for example) does adversely affect the WOB and is not recommended as a change to be made.

I've no idea about the Drager part.

Matt.

 

[gianaameri]

The advantage of Gar's strap is that it used the original APD mouthpiece.

APD have been vocal in the past that fitting a different mouthpiece (one that lets the mouth be more closed, for example) does adversely affect the WOB and is not recommended as a change to be made.

I've no idea about the Drager part.

Matt.

I second Matt on this.

It is a real advantage, if it works, to use a Gag Strap which does not affect the tested WOB, and in the case of the APD Gag Strap, it will not, because the mouthpiece is not replaced with an untested one.

Clearly, if you have a rebreather which already has a marginal WOB and you restrain the flow further by using a manufacturer unapproved and untested mouthpiece, you may take the rebreather over the safety limit upon which the rebreather has been tested (and in any event raise your risk from a WOB perspective by making it worse).

Bear in mind though that APD did have in its Catalogue offered to the general public in 2006 - 08 (roughly) for "upgrade" precisely the Draeger Gag Strap.

I purchased one Draeger Gag Strap from APD directly back then, and back then was approved on APD rebreathers (I still have the APD Catalogue for upgrades and accessories in my APD PC folder).

It would be interesting to ask APD (I won't cause I do not dive yellow rebreathers) if the Draeger Gag Strap is still approved now, and if not, why not.

I'd say if it was good then, the Draeger Gag Strap should still be good now (but if standards have changed since then it may be that now you cannot fit it as an upgrade).

 

[mmenduno]

mouthpiece strap

I used my APD mouthpiece strap for the first time this week. Thanks Uncle Paul!! It worked well. It was actually comfortable. Slight problem- it rotated my mouthpiece up and obscured bottom close up panel on bifocal mask. Argh. I found if I positioned back of strap lower down my head prob lessened.

 

[matt]

APD strap, £16:

 

[Paul Haynes]

I used my APD mouthpiece strap for the first time this week. Thanks Uncle Paul!! It worked well. It was actually comfortable. Slight problem- it rotated my mouthpiece up and obscured bottom close up panel on bifocal mask. Argh. I found if I positioned back of strap lower down my head prob lessened.

Glad it worked for you Mike. See you at Oztek. Rgds Paul

 

[Dave Sutton]

The advantage of Gar's strap is that it used the original APD mouthpiece.

APD have been vocal in the past that fitting a different mouthpiece (one that lets the mouth be more closed, for example) does adversely affect the WOB and is not recommended as a change to be made.

I've no idea about the Drager part.

Matt.

Matt,

The Draeger part shares the correct teeth-spacing flange thickness and does not adversely affect WOB. It's the fully tested one from the rEvo, which afaik has lower WOB than the Inspiration. The comfort and safety advantage is the lip-flange which tends to seal around the lips of a diver better than a purely bite-type mouthpiece.

Dave

.

 

[JONT]

Nobody is enforcing anything, and it's hardly likely that posts here will cause a uproar in Parliment causing hasty legislation to be passed... there's plenty of room for all opinions. Paul's made no suggestion of anything mandatory.


Let's not argue about politics please? Gents? None of this: :argue: OK?

Back to our regularly scheduled programme (note non-colonial spelling for Paul and our friends in the Antipodes)


Paul is dead on... the safety notwithstanding, the comfort of a gag strap makes rebreather diving a more enjoyable experience. And I second Paul's statement about the strap not interfering with bailout: Just pull the DSV straight down and bail out... it'll be there under your chin when you want it again. Hmmm... not like the guy who's groping for his over his head. And as another good part of the equation, a DSV pulled down like that, even unclosed, will not vent the loop out immediately with resulting huge buoyancy loss and immediate total flood on those rigs sensitive to such things (Mark-15, KISS, rEvo, etc).


Just another tool in the box, actual mileage may vary.


Dave

.

David is spot on, I use the REVO mouth piece/strap on all of my RB's and simply put its great ESPECIALLY when scootering, when PROPERLY used it is much more comfortable and it does add a degree of safety.

At this point I'm diving my REVO 80% of the time but finally and recently became a certified MEG diver, being that I'm on my third Meg it was time to do things properly and become certified and I was quite surprised at the number of things I did not know, but in any event I added a strap and its great.

I look at the gag strap practically, I have nothing to loose but everything to gain....so why not? For 130.00 +/- USD, the additional comfort and safety is a cheap date.

Jon

 

[jcook]

David is spot on, I use the REVO mouth piece/strap on all of my RB's and simply put its great ESPECIALLY when scootering, when PROPERLY used it is much more comfortable and it does add a degree of safety.

For the dives he remembers to use it when scootering..... :cuckoo: