You look and find the loop hypoxic....

If I feel fine, add O2. If not, bailout and then solve the problem, regardless of depth. A dil flush may be functionally equivalent to bailing out (assuming the same gas), but having a *single* reaction to "not feeling fine" is better than trying to make decisions at that point.

JJ MOD2
 
Dolphin and Optima training taught me to bailout. Dolphin, the dive was over and ascend. Optima, sort issue and return to loop when and if it was safe to do so.

Revo training taught me to dill flush and then sort issue or bailout.
 
I went hypoxic once. Right at the beginning of the dive when the ppo was .21 right at the surface messing with BO bottles. (Forgot to hook O2 line back up after pos/neg check (turning battery on for the dive day)). Hit me so fast I was out like a light switch.

So its not so hard to get hypoxic, nor take very long, and surprisingly I had no warning either. I have since then made doubly sure O2 and O2 conncted, and that the solenoid has fired again and PPO changed before hitting the water.(and O2 pressure didnt drop)
 
That would have been my response until it happened. Combination of battery bounce effectively turning the unit off with insane task loading from the moment of backward roll into the water onwards.

I always check my handset when jumping in and the HUD on descent. Never had "battery-bounce", thankfully.
 
First off, thank you for inspiring me to think critically about design, training and procedure.
Secondly, thank you for not getting pissed at me for taking our conversation on one thread and making another one. I was hoping you wouldn't get upset but I thought this discussion is worthwhile to have.

I have my ADV off below 20ft and only use oxygen manual at such a shallow depth but the situation in my mind had to do with the working part of the dive which I probably could have specified better however I'm glad I didn't because the idea of only using oxygen above 20 feet i support.

I know that reality and hypothetical situations can sometime be different due to the additional information a diver has but I'm not so sure even if you think the gas is breathable by simply adding a little oxygen to the inhale counterlung it seems as though we are forgetting that that assumption also assumes the cells are not damaged or incorrect. As the saying goings assuming makes an ass out of u and me but what happens when you make a double assumption..? Does it make an ass out of everyone? bahah.. er.. jk.

So i'll continue to watch this thread as time goes on because i am fascinated by all this but for the divers who have a rebreather designed, on purpose, to have oxygen manually added to the inhale counter-lung please understand I know that this topic has been discussed "ad-nauseum" as one diver stated. My point is WTF have we actually come up with as far as real actual benefits to having this design. I mean if this design was created in the 90's and considered worthy of keeping there has to be some other reason other than the Navy chooses to dive it. Seriously? Are we thinking divers?

Call me an ass all you want but there is so much innovation going on right now with electronics, Shearwater, the Meg 15 head, sidemount systems being perfected, scooter/battery technology excelling, and we can't even come up with a standard or best practice for placement of something as simple as a MAV.

Innovation is important for humans otherwise we would never try something new, never have been to the moon, and would never have been able to explore a cave. Standards are also important because as we learn there are bits of info that are better than others. Thinking brings innovation and standards to a whole other level. So as I enjoy reading on the forums I find myself constantly thinking and I'd like that thank all of you for that.

Cheers to all those who have responded thus far. Where the hell are all the supporters of the Inhale O2 MAV? I figured that someone would have thrown some dung by now...

Fantastic thread!

I'm with you Garth, I don't as much experience as most on this board does but an inhale O2 MAV doesn't make sense to me. If I'm at 100ft and I notice the loop on my Inspo is hypoxic, personally, I'll reach down and hit my dil MAV. I learned that in mod 1. Hyper/Hypooxic is the same response, dil flush. Using O2 at any depth below 20ft is beyond my risk tolerance level, but that's just me.
 
On my inspo id hit the dill

Revo 02 because it was front mounted and so much easier / quicker to get at than the dill

KISS no dill button so I would (and did when it hapened to me) hit the 02 add

JJ no dill again so id hit the 02

Id then breath down the loop and suck in dill to do a cell check

ATB

Mark
 
MOD 1 training if the loop was hypoxic add O2. Which is what I would and have done. After a few breaths and checking the cells reaction, then a dill flush is required to double check the accuracy of the cell readings. If all 3 cells are reading way out of whack adding O2 will be the less evil of the possible consequences. O2 tox is a combination of time and depth so unless you have totally forgotten to monitor your ppo for an extensive period you should be ok, but low O2 can render you unconscious without symptoms in a couple of breaths. So decrease the danger of hypoxia by adding O2 and then you do a dill flush to check functionality. This is especially true in shallow conditions as your consumption of O2 molecules is a constant to activity and there are less molecules in ppo of .16 at 20' compared to 100'. Of course bail out is also a good option especially if you have a BOV, you can then evaluate the condition of the breather.

Gabe

WHEN IN DOUBT BAILOUT
 
I always check my handset when jumping in and the HUD on descent. Never had "battery-bounce", thankfully.

I nearly always do, too. Usually we swim from the back of the boat to the anchor line and that little bit gives me a chance to check HUD, handsets etc. But on this day my buddies were all over the place so we descended from the back of the boat as soon as I hit the water. Well, tried to - they had sinking problems etc so I never really had a 5 second break to get myself sorted.

Lesson learned: make the 5 seconds for a check happen, regardless of whatever else is going on.

WHEN IN DOUBT BAILOUT
We've all heard the mantra and heard it often through the course. But hearing one thing and then going through the practical skills doing something else maybe isn't the best reinforcement.
 
Technically, the JJ has a MAV built into the ADV. I'm sure you, as a JJ owner, are aware of this, but figured I'd throw it out there for other folks. Also, the CE version comes with a "normal" MAV standard.


So you want me to breath down a hypoxic loop till I can hit the ADV?

No Thanks

ATB

Mark
 
When I think of hypoxic I think of something low enough to make the vibrator go off. .18. I would DIL flush (the way I Dil flush with the shrimp BOV is to:)
Bail out
Flush
Check PO2 is breathable
Go back on loop
Solve problem.

So I bailout just because that is the way I dil flush with the shrimp BOV. I then go right back on the loop once it is breathable so as not to waste my BO supply.

To me that is the fastest way of getting a known breathable gas in my mouth without wasting too much bailout gas.


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So you want me to breath down a hypoxic loop till I can hit the ADV?
No, I'd suggest you reach up and press the button on the ADV to manually inject.

Edit: Or do a standard dil flush by dipping your left shoulder while dumping the OPV. Whatever works.
 
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Totally. The shrimp BOV and the gas flow make it really intuitive to manage. Diluent flushing with the shrimp BOv blows air directly back over the cells to verify content.

If I was diving a rebreather with the oxygen in the inhale counterlung a diluent flush would take longer to blow past the cells if I'm understanding the flow dynamics correctly. I wish I had a diagram of the Rebreathers that have the oxygen MAV on the inhale counterlung...

To be honest, every rebreather is perfectly fine when it's functioning it's the management of failure that sets some Rebreathers apart from the others.

I'd like to hear more about the JJ if anyone is willing. I often wonder the capability of an ADV to do a proper diluent flush quickly. I have used my hammerhead ADV to do a diluent flush but the flow is not as great as the MAV.

Something to consider.


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I'd like to hear more about the JJ if anyone is willing. I often wonder the capability of an ADV to do a proper diluent flush quickly.

In its stock config, you just dip your left shoulder to trigger the ADV while simultaneously pulling the OPV cord. The ADV is in the T-piece, so you get known gas pretty much immediately, even before the loop is flushed. The ADV has a button on it you can use to manually inject, as well.

Some people replace the O2 MAV with a gas block and inject DIL on the exhale side. This configuration allows you to DIL flush more easily by pushing the gas block button and venting out the DSV, which comes at the expense of no longer getting known gas immediately because it has to go through the scrubber first.
 
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In its stock config, you just dip your left shoulder to trigger the ADV while simultaneously pulling the OPV cord. The ADV is in the T-piece, so you get known gas pretty much immediately, even before the loop is flushed. The ADV has a button on it you can use to manually inject, as well.

Some people replace the O2 MAV with a gas block and inject DIL on the exhale side. This configuration allows you to DIL flush more easily by pushing the gas block button and venting out the DSV, which comes at the expense of no longer getting known gas immediately because it has to go through the scrubber first.

The problem with the "classic" way of flushing by dipping the ADV lower than the OPV is that it does get dil to your mouth faster but is a much less adequate way of flushing the loop IMHO. We've discussed this before and despite Dave's penchant for the Venturi effect, flushing from inhale tee piece to exhale CL and OPV does not flush the head or canister. So I would say you are getting dil "at the expense of" a proper flush. Doing it the second way by adding a dil MAV to the exhale CL and letting the gas escape through loose lips at the mouthpiece will flush the exhale CL, exhale short hose, canister & head, inhale short hose, inhale CL, and inhale long hose to the mouthpiece. The only thing not flushed will be the exhale long hose between the mouthpiece and the exhale tee piece. And Venturi should certainly take care of that. Or using the MAV built in to the ADV in conjunction with a BOV like the Shrimp when turned to Bailout mode will force the added dil backwards through the loop and head and do a more complete flush before going out the OPV in the exhale CL.

As for what to do with a hypoxic loop, I'm exactly with Michael. Flip the shrimp to bailout mode, get the loop breathable with a dil flush, then go back on the loop and diagnose the problem.

But there are a few important points I'd like to make from the responses so far. These are just my opinions, and worth every cent you paid for them.

1. There is a big difference between a pO2 that is below your desired setpoint and a loop that is hypoxic (<0.18). One is a dive maintenance issue you resolve by squirting a little O2 in, no matter which CL. The other is a true emergency that requires an emergency response. I think some of the replies in this thread relate more to a "low pO2" than to a hypoxic loop.

2. When it comes to dealing with a true emergency, any of the replies that include the term "it depends" should be completely discounted. An emergency situation is no place to have to think, because your ability to think is most likely to be compromised by the nature of the emergency. Saying you would deal with the situation differently depending on whether you are deep or shallow, or depending on what dil you have, goes against the very nature of emergency action. Refer to Mark Chase's thread about his shallow bailout last year. In an emergency you should have one and only one, automatic, unthinking, reflex reaction. For me it is flipping the lever on my BOV. For others it might be a dil flush. No matter what, it needs to be ALWAYS configured to get you a safe gas at whatever your current depth is. No looking at depth gauges to determine whether you are above or below 6m. No checking to verify cells. That will all come later. Getting a breathable gas through a single reflex reaction is paramount.

3. I have no idea why the Meg was designed with the O2 add on the inhale side. That design troubled me for years. But the fact is that thousands of dives have been done safely without it ever causing a problem. So it probably doesn't matter one bit which CL gets the O2 addition. Even taking a full breath of pure O2 at depth will not be instantly fatal. Your tidal volume is not your full respiratory capacity. And OxTox is dosage related, involving both pO2 and time of exposure.

NOTE: I made this post and then half of it disappeared for some unknown reason. So if my re-creation lost a little in the process, I apologize.
 
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Ken

Have to say I find your post v noddy one .

What and where I'd do something will depend on what depth I'm at what part of the dive I'm in ,
If I'm at 9m and on deco I'm not going to hit my dill , as I won't be arsed if my cell s are shit or my unit has stopped pumping In O2 / can't keep set point .
Mav O2 in and move to 6m , o2 deco and home ,

If I'm at 80m it's a dill flush then some O2 to see what the fooks going on .
So I'm going to stick with it depends
And I never do a thing with out thinking , reflex reactions don't work for me , much like taking a fart and shitting your self , I like to way up the odd,s first .

I once had a low ppo2 on top of a wreck , no dill flush no O2 to add , I just went deeper . Depends


I'm a big fan of the green button and the only time I'm ever going to see a low ppo2 is and max depth , other than that it's v slim I'd say ,

So I'm going to be doing a dill flush then some O2 so I can see what the cell,s are doing .
Then and only then will I be thinking of bailing out or keep with the loop no reflex reactions,
 
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I've heard that a lot which I think is a dangerous suggestion but who the hell am I, because I don't have that much experience and I am not an instructor but I will say I think about failure and response all the time. It fascinates me.

Was the skill of dealing with low oxygen taught as in they made you perform an oxygen flushing to solve a low hypoxic oxygen reading?


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This is not too smart - what if hypoxia is caused by the o2 being off (or no gas for some reason) - you busily pressing the mav as you pass out and drown
 
A lot of the protocol variance can be down to unit differences. The best reply i ever heard for true hypoxia on an inspo was "both ****ing buttons, just in case"....then figure it out after.

If you want a single answer that fits ALL units, it has to be "bail out and sort the loop after".
 
I think my gut reaction in a hypoxic loop would be to hit the BOV or the adv. Bov more than likely. Dont know I'd hit the buttons.

I think somebody in the dive industry who is well respected (obviously not me.. ;-) ) should put together a failure mode effects analysis youtube presentation discussing rebreather hazard control and unit specific weakness advantages. Edit:... Every unit has them.
Independent and unbiased perspectives are few and far between but imagine ..


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Cranfield University have done a lot of fault tree analysis and FMECA on rebreather diving. I remember it being discussed on a masters course there. They were developing a rebreather for Apeks before Aqualung canned it and it was specific to that. I think some of it got published, it was good work from what I saw.
 
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