The amazing thing to me is that there are still several members on this forum that openly admit to diving O2 cells well past their expiration date and do so as though they are wearing a badge of honor!
Double Fatality in June 2014 (UK) - Inquest and Media Reports
- Thread starter GLOC
- Start date
scubainchicago
Member
like!!!
GLOC
real name: Gareth Lock!
Because human nature is funny like that. There are lots of people who drive cars with tyres below the legal tread limits because they haven't had to brake in poor driving conditions and then skidded into the back of someone else. There is significant evidence that once people start down the path of a poor decision, they are loathe to break that decision until an external party points something out to them contrary.
A simple example, how many times (especially as blokes) have you followed driving instructions that you thought were correct but wouldn't stop to ask directions, even when you 'know' you are lost. You keep on saying to yourself (subconsciously) "It will be alright, its just around the corner" rather than stop, ask someone, and then save yourself 10-60mins faffing trying to find where you were supposed to be going...even worse when there are a group of people in the car and then no-one wants to say anything...
Regards
Mr Walker
Relax /Frankie
Oh well, what I wrote was that this idea was a way of changing the mindset/culture. If a diver is met with a No Dive every time he attempts to dive with an overaged cell it may very well bring on a change a in attitude. Similar to having warnings in our cars when not using seatbelts.
I also think I'm Barking up the right tree, the cell tree. Can't see any other tree around that needs more barking than the cell tree. Do you?
/nils
Mr Walker
Relax /Frankie
Absolutley right. But then the diver will be faced with other issues like mixups in dating of his dives and the need to reset the date ever so often followed by the need to change dates in his divelog afterwards. No doubt some morons will find it worthwhile to do so, but I never claimed that this was a solution to catch all morons. I don't think there is such asolution around for a very very long time. But is that a reason to not do what's possible today? If a chip for a cost of a dollar or less saves the life of a person is it useless?
/nils
Mr Walker
Relax /Frankie
Is it not realistic to change technology? What world are you living in? Seen a modern car recently, or an aircraft or an airtraffic control? You are a funny guy but you are living in the stoneage.
You are right in that both attitude and technology exist and need to work together. But where attitude never will affect how technology works, technology may have a great impact on attitude. My proposal with my idea was just that. A No Dive from the rebreather may cause the diver to rethink his strategy and change his attitude.
/nils
lizardland
Active Member
Ok, change it then. Create the technology to do as you say or influence those with the power to do it. All of them. Rebreather manufacturers, cell manufacturers, users, everyone. Do it in a timeframe that will create a significant benefit. Otherwise it is mental masturbation. Nothing wrong with it but of no practical use in the circumstances.
I think I am more Bronze Age than Stone Age. I live in a world where I have what I have. I can change my attitude. I can influence those around me. These are doable. My world is realistic. We are where we are and we need to work within those bounds.
hmmm this seems very confrontational already.
The kind of person who is going to ignore cell change intervals, is the same kind of person who will just reset dates to get past an expiry date. Then theres the additional failure modes the additional circuit/check could add.... i dont see a net benefit here. If its just 'forgetfullness' thats easily fixed, put a sticker on the head with the dates the cells were changed.
Personally i think theres two things to fix;
1. People. Drill into people the need to mistrust cells and replace when they should do
2. Technology, i think we're all waiting for the solid state sensors, which so far look likely to have a near indefinite service life.
Mr Walker
Relax /Frankie
Agreed, but no 1 isn't working as it should, is it? If it did we wouldn't have this discussion, or thread even. And if it isn't working other solutions need to be looked at. That's my whole point.
SSS is like a wet dream, you and I have discussed them earlier. However it seems they are having trouble with accuracy and power consumption. Meanwhile, withholding my open attitude I refuse to just sit down arms crossed accepting things as they are (working within bounds as lizardland puts it), there may be other solutions available. We should try to find them.
So I was hoping to have a discussion with more ideas rather than whats come about so far.
/nils
Hopefully someone smarter than us can contribute 
Personally I think that there are some people who will find a way to dive old cells, no matter how much technology/education you throw at the problem.... they are effectively a lost cause, so instead focus efforts on the people who are 'misguided'. They may respond better to education etc.
The technology fixes often have an unforeseen consequence....and as you make any system more complex, your ability to foresee failure conequences reduces.
Thats what prompted my 'barking at the wrong tree' comment
Personally I think that there are some people who will find a way to dive old cells, no matter how much technology/education you throw at the problem.... they are effectively a lost cause, so instead focus efforts on the people who are 'misguided'. They may respond better to education etc.
The technology fixes often have an unforeseen consequence....and as you make any system more complex, your ability to foresee failure conequences reduces.
Thats what prompted my 'barking at the wrong tree' comment
michael_fisch
Member
[edit: removed]
An example in point:
an ex buddy just bought a new rebreather from a dealer including training, with only 1 pool dive to try out the rebreather before he bought.
After buying, he did one pool dive with the rebreather, took it home and did a lake dive including deco to 48M of depth, did a second pool dive with it, finally did his first official OW dive with it and got his level one card.
Maybe instructors should not be allowed to sell rebreathers including training, because this instructor really helped an ex-buddy, who was always a cheapskate, screw himself.
Now the buddy wants to cavedive the rebreather on the Easter holidays.
Neither the Buddy, the Instructor, the Rebreather, or the Training Organisation will be named, but I'm willing to swear on a stack of bibles that this is true.
Michael
An example in point:
an ex buddy just bought a new rebreather from a dealer including training, with only 1 pool dive to try out the rebreather before he bought.
After buying, he did one pool dive with the rebreather, took it home and did a lake dive including deco to 48M of depth, did a second pool dive with it, finally did his first official OW dive with it and got his level one card.
Maybe instructors should not be allowed to sell rebreathers including training, because this instructor really helped an ex-buddy, who was always a cheapskate, screw himself.
Now the buddy wants to cavedive the rebreather on the Easter holidays.
Neither the Buddy, the Instructor, the Rebreather, or the Training Organisation will be named, but I'm willing to swear on a stack of bibles that this is true.
Michael
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michael_fisch
Member
Accidents will happen, no matter how good the training is. Some people are an accident waiting to happen, and if the instructor had any sense or been able to forsee an unsafe attitude he/she should have refused to issue a card.
This is/was normally the case with cave diving instructors, now I have seen a CCR instructor who didn't have the balls to talk harsh words with his student.
3 pool dives with instructor, 1 sneak dive without the instructor and 1 official OW training dive with instructor got my ex-buddy a card, who now wants to take it cavediving in 2 weeks.
The rest of us train long and hard how to eliminate deadly errors before they can occur, when this is avoided people, including a Nobel prizewinner back in 1999 during the Wakulla II expedition, die.
Michael
This is/was normally the case with cave diving instructors, now I have seen a CCR instructor who didn't have the balls to talk harsh words with his student.
3 pool dives with instructor, 1 sneak dive without the instructor and 1 official OW training dive with instructor got my ex-buddy a card, who now wants to take it cavediving in 2 weeks.
The rest of us train long and hard how to eliminate deadly errors before they can occur, when this is avoided people, including a Nobel prizewinner back in 1999 during the Wakulla II expedition, die.
Michael
Mr Walker
Relax /Frankie
I didn't comment on the above. [edit: removed] Your response should have been an apology to the forum.
But you don't understand, do you? You don't even understand that it's yor responsability to report the instructor to the org, have a serious talk to your ex-buddy and eventually to his next of kin explaining what he's about to do. Are you man enough, do you have the attitude needed?
/nils
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GLOC
real name: Gareth Lock!
Manners, respect and unemotive statements are required if we are to learn from incidents. The culture I was talking about a long way up is seriously lacking in some quarters. You may think it, but it has no place in Just and Learning Cultures.
Posts edited to remove the unwelcome statements.
Regards
Posts edited to remove the unwelcome statements.
Regards
I would just like to point out to all those that want to wallow in the supposed stupidity of this situation that you are all speaking ill of one of our own community.
As a friend of both deceased I am finding this entire conversation reproachable and insensitive.
If anything please learn but don't deride or pretend that you would be any better on the day. Please make sure that you swap out a cell every 3-6 months and don't dive any that are beyond 18 months from manufacture.
Chris was a top bloke that was task loaded to the point of breaking, there was no other lesson to be learnt.
As a friend of both deceased I am finding this entire conversation reproachable and insensitive.
If anything please learn but don't deride or pretend that you would be any better on the day. Please make sure that you swap out a cell every 3-6 months and don't dive any that are beyond 18 months from manufacture.
Chris was a top bloke that was task loaded to the point of breaking, there was no other lesson to be learnt.
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serpentara
New Member
But what exactly makes for an old cell? For example the factory recommended cycle time for cells in rEvos is to purchase one new cell every six months, regardless of how many cells are in the unit. This means with a 3 cell setup no cell is over 18 months old. But in a 5 cell setup the last cell could be almost 2.5 years old by the time it is replaced.
They do however tell you to current limit test your cells at the end of every dive and to replace those that look bad... But still, 2.5 years?
Diving 1.5 to 4 yo cells. I agree with Michael, that's just dumb beyond fixing. Or perhaps the diver was so rusty and hadn't been underwater in so long he forgot how old they were.
At least on the cells I buy from ISC, they have the open/test date on them. While on the one hand I could see having an expiry date on them instead, that would imply that they are good to that date, like milk. When they could go bad earlier. So while the electronic 18 month expiry date sort of works as a fail safe, it also implies they can't /won't fail before that point. For instance, I'm pretty sure if I stored my cells at 45C in a car for 4 months they would expire in <12 months. So the electronic "cell data check" actually works against the semi-naïve user who needs sure a warning.
At least on the cells I buy from ISC, they have the open/test date on them. While on the one hand I could see having an expiry date on them instead, that would imply that they are good to that date, like milk. When they could go bad earlier. So while the electronic 18 month expiry date sort of works as a fail safe, it also implies they can't /won't fail before that point. For instance, I'm pretty sure if I stored my cells at 45C in a car for 4 months they would expire in <12 months. So the electronic "cell data check" actually works against the semi-naïve user who needs sure a warning.
Megangel1
Member
I'd be interested on what the CCR Liberty would have made out of those cells. OK so you need known helium in the DIL but could it have at least warned that the o2 cells were defective?
Likewise with the Poseidon, would it not have alerted to the cell failure, even if both were identically current limited?
Aren't such systems better than date chips in o2 sensors?
No matter what tech you put in place, someone will find a way around it / ignore it I guess.
Likewise with the Poseidon, would it not have alerted to the cell failure, even if both were identically current limited?
Aren't such systems better than date chips in o2 sensors?
No matter what tech you put in place, someone will find a way around it / ignore it I guess.