The diving tiler
New Member
Ta for that gem, wonder how he is getting on these days
Apocalypse Rebreather
- Thread starter zirk
- Start date
Ta for that gem, wonder how he is getting on these days
Sorry Brad/Alex, I had absolutely nothing to do with getting the Explorer through the CE process at SGS. That honor goes to Kevin Gurr and the wonderful engineers and process people at American Underwater Products. You will need to take up any complaints you have about the Explorer getting CE certified by the same body as the Apocolypse O2 rebreather with them.
As far as your banging on about what we used to lovingly refer to as a "suicide strap" back in the 1990's being required, first off the Explorer is a semi-closed unit with BOV so it does not have the same concerns with oxygen toxicity convulsions that your pure O2 Apocalypse rebreather has. The only way a diver can "tox out" on the Explorer is if they grossly exceed the onboard gas' MOD. As far as CO2 issues, the Explorer has inhale-side CO2 monitoring as well as a scrubber temp stick and gas injection counter to monitor CO2 production and scrubber activity. This may seem alien to you as you've apparently been diving a no-electronics CE certified pure O2 rebreather all these years while waiting for your CE certified electronics to materialize (certainly you would NEVER dive an un-CE certified third-party modified loop after banging on about never diving any other unit without first doing your own line-by-line audit of the SGS audit!) but the world has moved on and we do have some form of CO2 monitoring. While the system in place is not as perfect as Simon Mitchell or I would envision with ETCO2 monitoring being the end goal, at least it exists, works for its stated purpose and can be promised AND DELIVERED today. NOT 10 YEARS FROM NOW (or never)!
While I agree with Paul that a mouthpiece strap can be a good add-on for your CE certified pure O2 rebreather due to the inherent risks of diving pure O2 rebreathers, and deep dives on mixed-gas rebreathers where O2 convulsions or CO2 retention is a risk with divers passing out, they are not the panacea for all types of diving. We used to fashion them out of a mask strap and 2 o-rings when we felt they were needed. If retention straps were the answer to all that ails, they would have been a staple on all rebreathers from way before you came on the scene.
I haven't bothered replying to Brad/Alex's usual drivel as it is as tiresome and repetitive as it was 5 years ago, and will not bother answering any more of the CE nonsense Brad/Alex produces as a mindless reflexive activity. SGS has seen fit to certify the Explorer as fit for purpose and has certified it as such.
Lastly, in answer to your contention that you have been diving the "full electronics" Apoc, I will leave you with the final appraisal by Dave Sutton, the only other person I know of to publicly claim to have dived such an animal: "It works...just not very well"
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Charlie, An interesting allegation. A new thread might be appropriate but do you want to list why and correspondingly who for what?
Your Steve Simpson aren't you. The fraud that OSEL outed in their last Newsletter as having claimed to have ordered an Apoc and then not got refunded but who subsequently was found to have never even contacted OSEL let alone actually ordered anything from them?
Mark, Cool, I will be very interested to hear how you get on with it on your JJ. One word of advise, don't try and swap the gas flow direction as its engineered to be right to left only.
DL have had an eCCR design for years. AFAIK they just couldn't get any eCCR with a solenoid and voting logic CE certified for recreational divers!
I must have missed a lot of the early chatter as I came late to realisation of what they were offering with the Apoc but theres a couple of interesting bits in the above:
- All the Apocs that were ordered for US$995 were shipped
- The first look audit the Apoc had circa end 2008 it was passed for EN14143. When OSEL went back to get the paperwork they copped 93 non-conformances. Some of them chickenshit and some more serious, but they got down and cleared each and everyone.... Hence thinks like the breathable CL volume being more than 4.5L and DL having tested this and the .pdf for it which strangely you can't find for any other CCR....
- The Apoc with the 61508 cert elecs which are the only ones available with 61508 are less than other CCRs on the market
- A certain type of rebreather from an other manufacturer indirectly caused at least 2 years delay of the CE for the Apoc through no fault of OSELs.... This drove the UKRS audit of SGS who used the Apocs CE process as a role model!
- The basis for the Apoc has been in development for 13/14 years. Alex has a pretty good timeline of his side of the story on his website To download the 5 page Press Release, Click here
- The time for development we know about but the size of the team who have done the hard yards and the costs would be more interesting to know. I do know it wasn't a small project but they did acheive what they set out to - bar the final hurdle so far of supplying the iCCR half.
The whole deposits issue is a PITA. Originally you didn't need one and OSEL I understand got over 2000 pre-orders. OSEL were then advised to charge in full and in hindsight they only then only took a 50% deposit which IIRC barely covered the cost of the raw components.
There use to be a quite good Apoc owners chatter on the other forum amongst the noise way before it was sold to new owners but that was very effectively killed by the owners of the time and the mods.
I would hazard a guess there is somewhere between 30-50 Apoc's shipped. How many have NA90 pods on you would need to ask those guys.. There are no eCCR Apoc's unless you count the .mil and Commie variants and we no longer see anything about those on forums!
As to why you don't see them, count the noise to signal ratio of just this thread! For a lot of folk that have never ordered, looked at or dived on an Apoc there is an awful lot of constant proactive noise against it!
OSEL is based in Scotland. I am aware that they couldn't export CCRs until they had CE certification for them.
If you do the "real world" testing first and build production units to that spec and then worry about the CE certification you may have a LOT of hurdles to jump over and fix, especially when your audited to the level that OSEL appeared to be.... The Prism2 may be that opposing case study!
IIRC there have been 3 improvements that OSEL have opted to offer Apoc after 2 years of it being dived by customers. That doesn't seem too bad to me... and better yet I don't need to pay for them. I still have the 2009 original faceplate working perfectly fine on my ALVBOV....
Ben when I first ordered my Apoc around Oct 2008, I ordered what is now called the O2-CCR. Then I went back to OSEL an ordered the iCCR elecs as an add on option to my Apoc order.... at the time I couldn't order just an iCCR.... you had to add the monitor to the Apoc.
I do find it interesting that Alex et al with a rather large engineering team and a large budget couldn't get an eCCR CE'd for recreational diving... ever wondered why and looked into that?
3 hours is pretty close to the recommended 2:45. As they now recommend a 5hr duration for the water I dive in I am sweet with its duration.
I haven't seen another rebreather publish comparative scrubber duration's under the same test criteria of taking the CO2 at the mouth as required by the standard, have you?
That OSEL publish the shortest durations that the Apoc gets under the harshest CE requirement is certainly not marketing speak.
Ben, It can't be too much nonsense or the owners of a couple of the recreational rebreather manufacturers that sit on CEN would have surely had it removed in the last revision of 14143....
Sure you can't prevent the diver taking the DSV out himself but can certainly provide something that helps if he doesn't....
Regards
Brad
The diving tiler
New Member
Not really fraud then bralex is it, misdirection a magician's tool ye use so well.
michael hearn
Member
OSEL is based in Scotland. I am aware that they couldn't export CCRs until they had CE certification for them.
brad
is that couldnt or wouldnt
is this a specific scotish law , as far as i am aware ,you do not have to have CE for items, rebreathers or otherwise for export , as you see on many websites with non CE goods ... for export only ... just as non EU countries can export rebreathers to europe because they dont fall under these regulations . maybe im wrong , someone here with better know how should be able to clarify this
mike
brad
is that couldnt or wouldnt
is this a specific scotish law , as far as i am aware ,you do not have to have CE for items, rebreathers or otherwise for export , as you see on many websites with non CE goods ... for export only ... just as non EU countries can export rebreathers to europe because they dont fall under these regulations . maybe im wrong , someone here with better know how should be able to clarify this
mike
udtabn
Member
brad that's all you got his word ? dated in his news letter .....god your BOTH PATHETIC.......if either of you ever get to can PLEASE look me up id happy to discuss this PERSONALY with you great guys
alexasigno
Member
Out of curiosity. Why couldn't OSEL get the unit CEd with the electronics? What did it fail on?
udtabn
Member
being a POS
nickb
The JJ Kid
It holds a very firm POS!
Mr fish
Active Member
id go with smoke & mirrosrs,
whats in Glasgow, whats in St Petersburg , whats in Nassau,
Mr fish
Active Member
lets call it 40 units can some one have a guess at what % of the 40 went at the $1000 TAG . LOL 39 .OR 40
ps 2009 lol give the other one a pull , novermber 2010 and still no show , remember the last min recall problems with the BOV i think , or was it parts out off date , think bov was first , out of date may have been the next , id need to look back to see what came after maybe no parts in stock ,
late 2012 BE4 we see the CE o2 only APOX in the hands of some EA.s ,
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Reminds me of the movie Groundhog Day. It's like a perpetual bad dream!
+1
Make it stop......
PLEASE can we not give these guys any more airtime? It's like watching a train wreck in progress - can't watch but can't look away!
Brad
You've avoided Simons point and instead waffled on about a completely different topic.
Everything you say is technically complete accurate, but not relevant to what Simon said.
The original CONCEPT of the apoc was to be the savior of all CCR divers. Alex Deas did start out by claiming that he could produce a functionally safe ECCR for $1k.
The first MARKETED PRODUCT that orders were taken from was indeed a $995 loop and seperate ICCR electronics.
You cannot counter Simons correct statement with a seperate (also correct) statement on a different topic.
FWIW I just checked and my order for a $995 loop was order number #152. I believe it was in the first 50 shipped, and I've had it for 2 1/2 years.
(Incidentally, there were a number of costs that somehow changed between order and shipping - such as shipping going from $60 to $200 etc - which meant that the $995 loop actually ended up costing me ~$1300)
It's an OK unit, and very good value for the price with an N@90 pod added. However I don't think anyone is about to offer me a YBOD / rEVO / JJ as a trade for it...
Mike
Matt, No worries, I could have sworn I read about you doing dives pre-CE cert on it aka testdiving that would have contributed to the technical file that was submitted for the CE cert but I must have been mistaken.....
Full congrats with getting the CE cert and picking SGS to do it with. Like with Dave, I look forward to seeing how you at Hollis or AUP if you want to be pedantic have provided a solution to the diver not drowning if they fall unconscious?
I guess no one has ever misfilled a Nitrox cylinder...
So if they can't possibly have a tox or any form of convulsion underwater on an Explorer thats an awesome marketing claim as it magically solves half the problem to 5.10.1 - So how does the Explorer stop the diver going unconscious and then drowning?
So let me see, the only way that the inhale CO2 monitoring will alarm is if you exceed the scrubber duration? How are divers going getting more than 2 hours out of it?
How is the Explorer CO2 sensor out of an air conditioning unit as sold by GSS going with the moisture in the loop?
To the uninformed CO2 monitoring is I guess CO2 monitoring so the minor differences behind inhale and exhale probably don't mean much to your intended sales market.
And there I was thinking that VR effectively ditched the inhale CO2 monitoring on the Sentinal as effectually inaccurate. I guess you only need to get it to within an accuracy of 3% full scale deflection for CE so it could be as much as what 6% out and still have it scrape through the CE test... Do the customers who you are flogging inhale CO2 monitoring to get any proof that it works from unmanned testing?
Looks like DL first started using and studying the CO2 monitor that they had developed in 2001 so your both only about 13 years behind I guess http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_files/Fault_Study_CO2_Bypass_110314.pdf
So when have the military stopped using them on CCRs.... Whats the average depth a rebreather fatality occurs at and how many of them haven't seen the diver drowned?
As above, I will be fascinated to see AUPs solution to 5.10.1 of EN14143.... if there isn't an answer that is obvious then that raises the question of how many more complicated things have been glossed over during the audit of the Explorers technical file....
Let me see, I think you met Alex as well at DEMA when we chatted so thats a third chap at least not to mention some others there. Then lets look at your point further, the only times I saw Dave Sutton diving the iCCR and the only time I can confirm that he dived it, I was his surface supervisor and watched him dress in the unit. He walked out to the pool and we said pick any unit from those laid out. Based on the videos that OSEL have uploaded of it they certainly show it working in all respects so I don't know what the basis of Dave's comments are from, but would be interested to learn more....
Video of Dave Sutton diving the iCCR at facebook.com/media/set/?set=vb.151298954899613&type=2
And there I was foolishly thinking this was a place that allowed balanced discussion. I would have thought active discussion about the differences of rebreather design choices was a pretty good thing to learn from and about. Its certainly something that would effect my buying decisions and does as I am actively looking for another rebreather to have.
While I wouldn't recommend the OP buy an Apoc any more than any other rebreather I would recommend he look at it as a valid option and one that he can at least verify its unmanned performance against known minimum requirements... WOB usually crops up as a something the judge a CCR on.
Excluding something that is available simple due to having a closed mind, and may be safer across a broad spectrum of criteria would appear to be a foolish buying decision! Of course it may not suit for other reasons but that is all part of a valid decision process.
Mike, "Couldn't" AFAIK it is a very serious and significant issue if you are the sort that abides by the rules and are manufacturing a rebreather within Europe! For a first hand feedback on the issue you chat to the lads at NA90 and bob howell if he is still around as I believe they each had a visit on the matter from trading standards IIRC Don't quote me on that though as I might be thinking of something else along the same lines.
For more specifics I would recommend you ping OSEL or probably even better Alex Deas direct. PM me if you want his email address. It certainly stopped OSEL from shipping me an Apoc that I had paid for until they had CE.
Before certain other makes of CCRs got CE I understand the issue was sort of bypassed through drives down or flights into Switzerland to pickup orders....
Hey Steve Simpson from Ontario Canada of UDT Diving or should I just call you Walter? More than happy to chat personally about the matter
udtabn and OSEL May 2012 Newsletter said:
Alex, OSEL/DL got the Apoc CE certified with and without iCCR elecs and the Incursion eCCR and the Umbilical eCCR to EN14143:2003 including 61508...
CE certs at opensafety.eu/certificates.php
As I understand it OSEL never even tried to get an Apoc eCCR CE certified for recreational diving with a solenoid as they couldn't get a functional safety case approved for it. Quite some difference apparently between recreational diving and military or commie! No functional safety, no 61508 and then no CE for them to 14143... OSEL were a unique manufacturer to need to meet this standard as achieved!
Folk tend to complain about me mentioning that folk might have fatalities on rebreathers but a count of the number that have occurred on eCCR as opposed to mCCR turns up a difference. Last time I looked at the list it was getting up towards 300...
Mike, You mean I sidestepped Simon's baiting yet was still technically completely accurate... by directly answering the question.. can't win can I
Ok lets look at that in a bit more detail and break it down:
- 1) Functionally Safe certified rebreather and rebreather elecs - check
- 2) eCCR - check
- 3) eCCR for sports diving - no go - see point 1
- 4) CCR for $1k - check
- 5) functionally safe eCCR for $1k - can't say I have ever seen this claim. I do recall being updated as the changes ocurred. I certainly could never order an eCCR from OSEL.
So we have that you could buy and did buy a functionally safe CCR for $1k... No one else has even achieved the functional safety requirement for any price so thats some achievement!
Why you can't buy an eCCR from OSEL would appear to be the can of fat wriggling worms. If DL couldn't get an eCCR through functional safety certification despite doing so for the military and commie units that would tend to imply quite a lot to me!
AFAIK the original concept behind the Apoc is better described at deeplife.co.uk/files/Deep_Life_Press_Release_101130.pdf
So a comment possibly made on a forum years ago about the initial planning and scope for a project trumps reality?
If it proved not physically possible for Alex to provide what Simon has demanded he should have provided based on a forum discussion that would seem to be the more important part to concern ourselves with... As mark and others have said if OSEL sold eCCRs they would sell like hot cakes. So why couldn't OSEL have provided the eCCR they manufacture that was at DEMA in 2009 to sports divers. What is the difference between dive types?
As i understand it Simon won't like and likely doesn't understand why the answer to the above is that the only company that has ever tried couldn't get either a solenoid or voting logic or C++ code certified as functionally safe. So if its not physically possible to have a "functionally safe eCCR" for any money I fail to see the beef he has over it?
Cheers, I guess I was a bit out with the numbers shipped then. How many rebreather manufacturers only charge $60 for shipping from the other side of the globe? It cost me $45 just to get a new badge for my car shipped from the states the other day let alone a 20kg box of rebreather.
It would be very very interesting to see someone do a direct comparison between those 4 units... especially if all setup with matching elecs and then the offer afterwards
Regards
Brad